The highly regarded documentary filmmakers Joe Berlinger and Bruce Sinofsky seem to have an interest in injustice in the underbelly of America. Their 1992 documentary Brother's Keeper told the story of an eccentric man who was charged with the murder of his ailing brother. But, as Vincent Canby in The New York Times wrote, the film is "not only the story of Delbert's arrest, the long months leading up to his trial and the trial itself. It's also about his family and about the community that found its identity by supporting him, [and] about an aspect of life in rural America that's seldom seen by people who drive through it, and seldom if ever glimpsed in movies." Brother's Keeper was named Best Documentary of '92 by the Directors Guild of America, the New York Film Critics Circle, the National Board of Review, and the Boston Society of Film Critics.
Their follow-up film would gain even more notoriety: Paradise Lost followed the arrest (and, many would say, unfair) trial of three Tennessee teenagers for murders some claimed were inspired by heavy metal music. None of this is exactly uplifting material, but the documentarians found a certain humanity in each case, and managed to touch the heart, even inspire, without being preachy. No small feat. We (Jonathan Marlow and Craig Phillips) caught up with the two of them in a telephone conference call on the eve of the long-awaited DVD release of their first great success.
We can now celebrate the ten-year anniversary of Brother's Keeper, eleven years after the release of the film.
Bruce Sinofsky: [laughs] Almost twelve, but who's counting?
Joe Berlinger: I've been pushing these guys to get the tenth-anniversary DVD out for a year-and-a-half.
BS: And "eleventh" just didn't sound good.
It just doesn't have the right ring to it, does it? You added a short to the disc called The Wards Take Manhattan.
JB: We had wrapped Brother's Keeper around March. The trial had ended. We shot what's currently the end of the film, saying goodbye with us on the tracks. Roscoe invites us up: "Come visit us in the spring." Instead, they came down to visit us during the summer. That was a few months later. We decided to film it, thinking that it might be a great ending to the film because we were still editorially not sure what we were doing with the film. We were still editing it when they came to visit us. Actually, we only shot the first day because, by the end of the first day, Bruce and I looked at each other and said, "You know, the ending that we had already roughed out with them?"
BS: That was going to be better.
JB: Waving goodbye, that's the best ending for the film. So we sort of stopped filming and just allowed it to be the fun event that it was.
BS: The next day we took them to one of the battleships that are in the harbor here [in New York City] and spent the day with them.
JB: That footage always sat on the shelf and we always said that one day maybe we'll make a short or do something with it. At the time, back in 1991, there was no such thing as DVD so we didn't think, "Hey, that would make a great DVD extra." When we started talking about doing the DVD, this was a natural thing. We loved this footage; it almost made it into our film.
BS: The thing is, we only screened it once and then it went right onto the shelf.
JB: It just sat there and when this DVD starting getting planned, ironically, we had to choose between that or, because we also filmed in 1997 - Delbert Ward died in 1997 or 98 - and we went up and we actually donated a headstone and spoke at the funeral and we also shot, not the burial, but the dedication of this headstone that was dedicated to all four brothers.
BS: So they'd always be together.
JB: We filmed that dedication and when it came down to making the DVD we had to choose, because there just wasn't the money to do everything.
BS: It was much nicer to see Delbert alive.
The Brothers From Brother's Keeper
JB: We had to go back to the original negative for all this stuff. We had to pick, so The Wards Take Manhattan should be the thing that goes on the DVD.
The film was quite a success at Sundance in 1992. You had an experience with Spalding Gray at the screening, a story which ends up as the trailer for the film. Were you surprised at Spalding's reaction?
BS: Yeah, I guess you're surprised by anybody's reaction after they see the film. The point where his bladder was full and he couldn't leave - anybody would be pleased and also surprised at that kind of reaction. We were able to reach out to him when we were wanting to do a trailer but because our film basically was being blown-up from 16mm to 35mm we didn't have any elements to actually cut a trailer for the theatrical release. We had this idea of approaching Spalding to re-tell that story and we shot that up at his work-shed or something up in the Hamptons. I think we spent one long night cutting it and it ended up working really well. It was great, especially at the art houses where this film was (mostly) destined to play, Spalding had a pretty good following. It actually became sort of a little cult film - people started to talk about the commercial almost as much as the film.
Can you talk a little about how you divide up your directorial duties on those films for which you're both credited as director?
BS: I do everything and Joe takes all the credit.
JB: Ha-ha-ha.
BS: On other interviews, I say Joe does everything and I take all the credit.
JB: We're a producing/directing team and we both produce and direct. It's hard to define. There was a time, I guess on Brother's Keeper, where Bruce had more knowledge to shepherd us through post-production. I had more marketing knowledge to do the posters, sell the film and raise money and that kind of thing. In terms of a "creative vision" as the directors of the film, it's just two guys who get along really well and have a similar vision for things.
BS: We sort of made a pact at the beginning that we would check our egos at the door, when we went out filming, and it's worked.
JB: Now, ten years later, we have both wanted to spread our wings a little bit so we don't do everything together. We both have our own projects, but when we work together it still works the same, even though Bruce has acquired much of my marketing knowledge and I've acquired much of his technical knowledge. The old rules don't really apply. We just enjoy working together. It's truly a shared creative vision that's hard to explain. It just works.
BS: It's very collaborative. A lot of partnerships don't work but ours does.
Was it a difficult decision to four-wall [renting the "four walls" of a theater for a period of days or weeks, usually paying the theater a flat fee] Brother's Keeper after Sundance?
JB: Ah, but we didn't four-wall.
You didn't have to go that route?
JB: We had a legitimate theatrical release that we're very proud of.
BS: We set up our own distribution company.
JB: Honestly, Michael Moore had just gotten $3 million for Roger & Me the year before and we rode into Sundance with a lot of hope and perhaps arrogance. We've learned since then. We assumed that if the film got the kind of attention that it did get, which was a lot of critical praise, that we were going to be counting the dollars for our distribution deal. Which is not why we made the film - obviously, when you make a film on the weekends and go deep in debt and take second mortgages on homes, it's not about the money. Since everyone was telling us how great the film was, we thought for sure that were going to get a great distribution deal.
BS: We just felt that the film deserved to be seen on the big screen.
JB: Yeah, and we got zero distribution deals. Just a couple of offers from some second-rate distributors. Not only were the deals not good but there was no vision for marketing. So we thought, hell with it, we'll do it ourselves.
BS: American Playhouse helped us out a little bit. We did everything. I was on the phone daily, booking the film or finding out where an art screen was in Gary, Indiana and trying to book it there. Joe was designing posters and contracts. It was fun. In a small little office, we were doing everything, we were dragging prints to the post office, we were cleaning the prints. I wouldn't recommend it but I think it sort of grounded us as to the realities of the business.
Even from a self-distribution standpoint, it was a remarkable success.
JB: It ultimately did about a million at the box office.
BS: Foreign sales were strong.
JB: It did really well in about thirty countries around the world, it went to American Playhouse for US television, it was put out on video by Fox/Lorber a few years ago, and now, DVD.
BS: It was on fifty top-ten lists. New York Film Critics Circle, Boston Film Critics, National Board of Review. It was a fun time for us. As Joe says, if we had known that we peaked then--
Oh, please!
JB: If I only knew my career was peaking then I would have enjoyed it more!
I have to particularly thank you for what I believe to be one of the most fantastic contemporary soundtrack albums ever released.
BS: Great, thanks. Jay [Ungar] and Molly [Mason] were quite spectacular. I still listen to it. Now we're busy working on a heavy metal feature.
This is the Metallica film [Some Kind of Monster]?
BS: Yeah. Going from both extremes.
Obviously there is connection to music throughout all of the different projects that you've worked on together and separately.
BS: That's true. We've always felt, even back when we did Brother's Keeper, it was very unusual for a documentary to have a score. All of our films have a lot of music in them. Obviously, with this Metallica film it will be chock full of it, but Paradise Lost: Revelations as well as Brother's Keeper. Music is important to us. It's a way to set a mood; it sometimes helps to tell a story. We embrace it.
Were you approached to do the Who project [One Day Who] or did you actively seek it out?
JB: That was a film commissioned by JBL, the speaker company which sponsored The Who's summer tour, and they asked us to make a short little film that would play before the concert, each concert. A gift to the audience, with a little behind-the-scenes.
And Bruce, your Sun Records documentary [Good Rockin' Tonight]?
BS: Sun Records was a lot of music. That was fun. Besides getting to hear a lot my favorites like Paul McCartney and Plant and Page and people like that, I got to meet some of these icons, guys I'd only read about, like Billy Lee Reilly and Sunny Burgess and these great guys who made Sun, who didn't quite make it like Elvis or Johnny Cash, but they're important. That was a lot of fun. Joe and I did Rolling Stone magazine's thirtieth-anniversary special [Where It's At: The Rolling Stone State of the Union] for ABC. Almost every project we do has a large element of music in it.
You've done "Rock & Roll" and you've done "Drugs" [Hollywood High], so we're waiting for the "Sex" movie.
BS: [laughs] We're looking!
Is Hollywood High is coming out on DVD?
BS: No. It's owned by AMC. They'd be smart to put it out if they think they can make any money, but I'm sure they look into those things. I don't know what kind of market it is or what it costs them to put out a DVD. We were laughing the other day because on the Blockbuster Web site you could look up Hollywood High and it says, "No Picture Available," and it gives a little description and it says "Not Available on DVD, Not Available on VHS."
Just to tempt you.
BS: It's kind of funny that someone actually took the time to put something on their site.
Even more unusual is that the sequel, Revelations: Paradise Lost 2, is available on disc but Paradise Lost is not.
JB: Actually, that is changing as of this week. It's been my personal mission for the last two years to try and get that released. There were some legal entanglements but it seems like the way has finally been cleared. I think November is the street date from Artisan for Paradise Lost.
BS: We're really happy about that. It was Joe's mission for three or four years. It would be very interesting for us to do a director's commentary on that, because so much of what isn't in the film was our own personal experience down there - which was quite unique, to say the least. I think that will actually be kind of fun to talk about.
You're both involved, as co-executive producers, of the fictional telling of the West Memphis Three. How did that project get started?
JB: To be honest, we have always resisted getting involved in a West Memphis Three film. Miramax wanted to do one the year after Paradise Lost came out. Especially if we invented a fictional version of our own documentary, as much as it would be interesting getting into bed with Miramax on a feature film, we always felt doing that would trivialize our documentary. Frankly, enough time has passed, and a young guy - Curt Thompson - was a whirlwind pulling it all together. He approached us about executive producing it and we said, "Sure." First of all, we're sort of keeping it at a bit of an arm's length, i.e., we're not directing. Enough time has passed and the film is going to get made anyway, so--
BS: It also allows us to "safe-guard."
JB: We spoke to Laurie, Damien's wife, and said, "We'd like to get involved to make sure it's something we're all proud of."
BS: I think if Damien was against the film and thought it was a bad idea we probably would not get involved. But having our hands in it and talking about the script and things like that allows us to make sure that there's no misrepresentation.
JB: Not even "probably." If Damien said, "Don't do it," I know we wouldn't do it.
BS: We would have walked away.
JB: We decided to get involved. I had mixed feelings about it because for so long we've always said "wouldn't" and "shouldn't," but I feel this is a safe way.
BS: Two other projects dealing with the same subject matter are in pre-production now, one for USA Television and there's another independent film in the early stages. So there's three of them, all of a sudden, ten years after the event. It's strange.
Is it your hope to get your film done before the others, so as to "beat them to the punch," so at least you tell the story the way you think it should be told?
BS: Well, I don't think we have much control over that. I just hope that if three films do come out, or even two of them, or just one, that it attracts enough attention so maybe on a national basis, beyond where our films have taken it, there will be a push for justice for these three guys. Maybe Damien will get a new trial. That's important to us. We want that to be one of the things to come out of this feature. It will be a good film, I'm sure, but we're hoping it will have impact and attract people where maybe more pressure is put on the court system in Arkansas and ultimately in the federal courts. Maybe Damien, Jason and Jesse will get one more shot at freedom. That would be the best thing that we could ever have done in any of our film careers - to maybe get these guys freed.
Was there a strong push after Paradise Lost for a new trial?
BS: Not as much as we would have liked. Our biggest disappointment, although it was very well received (with Emmys and all of that kind of stuff), was that it never leaped off of the entertainment pages on to the editorial pages. That's why we allowed ourselves to do the second film [Revelations], because we still wanted people to know what had happened to them. New evidence and additional reasons to believe they were being railroaded. Obviously, the first film attracted attention to the West Memphis Three and the Web site. Tens of thousands of followers, Henry Rollins, Metallica, Pearl Jam... so many people have gotten involved on a personal level, financially, also creatively. To raise money and raise awareness throughout the country. The film didn't come out until 1996 and the trial was over in 1994, so it had been several years. It wouldn't have immediate impact but, slowly but surely, even though it's been seven or eight years since the first film came out, it's swelling. When Paradise Lost comes out on DVD and these other films are hopefully in production in the fall, maybe there will be a big push. That's the best we could hope for.
I am almost reluctant to ask this. Do you think that it is merely a coincidence that your best-known documentary works are films that you both edited?
JB: [pause] No, it's not a coincidence. It's a touchy issue.
BS: [laughs] I'll say. Especially where I'm sitting, Joe.
JB: Part of the problem with success is that you take on more and more responsibilities and juggle more than one project. Brother's Keeper was a labor of love where we weren't concerned about a paycheck. This was our role of the dice. Bruce and I poured over every frame of film.
BS: In my house in Montclair, New Jersey, there's a small sun room that we turned into an editing room. It's like a closet. The three of us worked in there - my assistant Bill, Joe and I - every day.
JB: We poured over every frame and labored over every decision on Brother's Keeper and Paradise Lost. But, by the release of Paradise Lost, we had a pretty happening production company, doing commercials and "this, that and the other thing." It's a very touchy issue. We trust the very good people that we hire. You're actually the first person to ever ask us that. It's a really good question. We'll see what happens on Metallica. I think Metallica is going to be a great movie.
It's definitely got a huge built-in audience.
BS: Yeah, it really does. I'm as proud of this or excited about this as any of the films we've ever done. I think that's saying something. This is a very unusual film. It's not anything like your traditional rock-and-roll kind of movie.
JB: It definitely has our stamp on it.
How did you envision the project to begin with? Were you approached by Lars and the rest of the band?
JB: It was a little more fluid than that. You know, we approached Metallica about the music in Paradise Lost. That's how the relationship started. We sort of lobbed a fax over to their management company without ever expecting a response. We obviously had all these stereotypes and doubts. "Sure, Metallica's going to give us their music." Within a day, we had gotten a phone call back, because of Brother's Keeper. Once we explained that the movie was about accused killers that listened to heavy metal, in particular Metallica, they sort of bought into the cause of the movie.
They couldn't have been more supportive, and then, they were very proud of the movie when they saw it. They gave us more music for Revelations. During those years we sort of became, not bosom buddies, but friendly enough to check in with each other from time to time. It just so happened that when we were all ready to do something together, it was the time that the movie should have been made. When we started the film in basically 2001, the whole Napster thing was blowing up in their face and they started a new record [St. Anger] and hired a therapist. Two or three years before, not only would they not have hired a therapist, they would not have allowed us to film these therapy sessions. So the film is very much about pressures and the human dimension of being a major rock band.
BS: It's not a concert film.
JB: Concert films are a dime a dozen. This a real, inside look at very interesting personalities.
Have you finished shooting?
BS: Basically, yes.
JB: We have a few pick-up days in August for some minor things. Now we're sitting with three editors and 1,200 hours of footage.
BS: Which is now down to three-and-a-half hours.
So that's your rough-cut? Three-and-a-half hours?
BS: [laughs] Joe and I never do any films that are short! This will probably be two-and-a-half when we're done.
Was this shot on film or on DV?
JB: On DV, on tape.
BS: We couldn't possibly afford that much film.
JB: Also, we put cameras in places - that's the other thing I'm proud of. Sometimes, we relied on PD-150s to get things that normally would be hard to get with rock bands. Most of the film was shot with a nice DSR-500. It wouldn't have been the same on film.
BS: And it was fun. Hard, but a good time.
You stopped shooting around the time of the release of St. Anger?
JB: We actually followed them through their year of recording. Filmed their European tour.
BS: We did a little shooting in New Jersey, we did some helicopter shooting in Philadelphia. Then a little bit in Los Angeles and San Francisco. The "story" story, the bulk of the story, is already completed. The rest of the stuff... I don't want to call it "window dressing," but it's not really content-driven.
JB: As proud as we are of Brother's Keeper and Paradise Lost, for different reasons, I actually think Some Kind of Monster is the film that people are going to know us for.
From your latest, let's briefly go back to the beginning with something no one knows about. Your first collaboration together, Outrageous Taxi Stories, seems to predate Taxi Cab Confessions.
JB: It did and there's some sensitivities there. You make whatever conclusion you want. I was a marketing and executive producer kind of person and my buddy, the editor, Bruce and I just decided to make this fun, wacky film about New York City cabbies.
BS: When you think about it, Joe, that was in 1989. You got Bob Richman to shoot it, who's our chief DP now; he shot Paradise Lost and Metallica. It was just a great collaboration for all of us.
JB: I had just met my wife, Lauren, and she did the catering.
BS: That's right - "Catering by Laurenzo."
JB: It was just a fun, wacky short film that, for some reason, everyone loved because it was very funny. It did very well at festivals, it won some awards.
BS: Joe and I really liked working together. We actually said, let's do what that Maysles used to do - Salesman, Gimme Shelter, Grey Gardens and all those great films - and we both saw this story in the New York Times Metro section about Delbert Ward's plight. Joe realized that the place was about eight miles from where he went to college. And I just loved the picture; it was like a dustbowl-era picture of the brothers. We said, "We've got to look into this." That was on a Tuesday, and by Friday, we were up there meeting with Ralph Cognety, his attorney. We started shooting on Saturday.
JB: The thing that struck us the most, that was a film that was shot only because we had fulltime production jobs, we were complete nobodies, we had really old film equipment. We shot on weekends.
BS: It's kind of a miracle that we actually made the film as well as we did.
JB: We shot short-ends, recans.
BS: We had no practicals, just a shopping bag with lightbulbs, just lightbulbs. We didn't have any stands.
JB: It's amazing to think that it is now coming out on DVD.
BS: And we both wish that we could go back to that kind of experience but now you can't, because now the quality of your work is expected to be at a certain technical level. Joe and I keep joking about just the two of us going off with PD-150s and finding a story, with nobody else involved.
JB: If we find the right subject, we might very well do that.
BS: I think now is a good time for documentaries.
It sure seems that way.
BS: You have to realize that all documentary filmmakers are bastard children of Hollywood; we all wish we'd get the attention that even a bad filmmaker in Hollywood gets. We're small but sometimes we tell better stories. I hope when this Metallica film comes out, February or March, that the ground is still fertile.
On that note, Joe, you've done some fictional work as well, both for television [Homicide] and what I believe to be the unfairly maligned Book of Shadows.
JB: You mean the worst-received sequel of all time? I'm one of the only directors I know who has a DGA, an Emmy, a Sundance Award and a Razzie.
You may end up being the only one ever.
BS: [Laughs]
JB: From the sublime to the ridiculous.
Do you have any more plans to tackle fictional work as a director?
JB: I have optioned a book called Education of a Felon by Eddie Bunker who is a famous cult prison novelist who's written four novels that have been turned in movies. His own story is quite fascinating. I actually just got the first draft of the script [from Michael Ventura] and we're going to have the second draft by September, and hopefully, next year we'll be making a movie about it.
The Blair Witch experience was a mixed blessing. My vision for the film never saw the light of day. I wrote and shot a satire, and in the twelfth-hour, a marketing person came along and said, "Let's turn this satire into a horror flick." So when you watch Blair Witch 2, you see elements of over-the-top satire intercut with these slashy moments that the studio put in at the last moment. They sort of destroyed the film. I took a vow of never compromising my vision again, and so, that was a good experience. Okay, plus, I made a lot of money.
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