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	Independent Talk about the world of independent film.	42

Dead Man -- what did you get out of it?
	Topic by: rmarkd Posted: November 8, 2003 - 9:58 PM PST Last Reply: September 24, 2004 - 8:36 PM PDT

author	topic: Dead Man -- what did you get out of it?
rmarkd	post #1  on November 8, 2003 - 9:58 PM PST   I've read various reviews about this movie, and many people seem to love it, but don't give "for dummies" reasons that I can understand (I'm not a film student, film buff, or philosopher). Seems to me that many positive reviews add fluff terms to make it sound like a grand epic, but really don't say much at all. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I hated this movie. This is one of those movies that haunt me, much like Mulholland Drive does. But with MD, I get something out of it; the movie makes sense to me. Not so for Dead Man. I feel there is something that I've missed, but maybe it's atmosphere + haunting music + wonderful acting by Depp. It's weird, I *want* to love this movie, but can't find a reason. So, is this just haunting visual movie, or is there some deeper meaning that I just missed? -Mark
dwhudson	post #2  on November 9, 2003 - 4:11 AM PST   Mark, a topic you might want to check out is the one on this film dpowers opened up in February. Unfortunately, we kind of swerved off topic, for which I'm partly responsible, but d's opening posts have some thoughts and quotes that might spark another question...?
PatrickCrain	post #3  on November 9, 2003 - 9:43 AM PST   My take on Dead Man is that Johnny Depp's William Blake is already "dead" at the beginning of the movie and is trapped somewhere between heaven and hell. Much like the Danny Aiello character in Jacob's Ladder, Gary Farmer's Nobody serves as the spiritual guide in Dead Man. Look, for instance, at the two towns in the film. One, the town of Machine, is a Sodom and Gommorah type of place with muddy streets, open fornication and it is somethig of a haven for malcontents and ne'er do wells. The word "machine" meant the beginning of the end for the old west as industry began to take over and the more naturalistic properties of the pioneers fell by the wayside. On the other hand, the spritual haven that Nobody leads William Blake to is constructed much in the same way (a narrowly lined street with its spritual pinnicle at the end of said street). On the street, there are various implications of a strong sprituality and lifestyle that is far removed from the town of Machine (in one shot, there is a sewing machine that is half buried in the ground!). As far as the rest of the film goes, there are overt spiritual references both spoken and visual (Dickinson disappears, Crispin Glover calls the frontier "hell," the three killers that go after Blake remind the viewer of the hounds of hell being unleashed, etc.). Anyway, that's my take on the film for whatever it's worth.
hamano	post #4  on November 9, 2003 - 12:55 PM PST   > On November 9, 2003 - 4:11 AM PDT dwhudson wrote: > --------------------------------- > Mark, a topic you might want to check out is the one on this film dpowers opened up in February. > --------------------------------- Yeah, I don't know if you're doing rmarkd a big favor pointing him to THAT thread. He seems to want comments on the cinematic vision Jarmusch was trying to convey, and THAT discussion was on whether Jarmusch's independence affords him the ability to make films the way he wants or not... at least that's my take on what dpowers was saying over there. rmarkd, I haven't seen Dead Man yet so I can't comment directly on it. Have you seen any other films by the same director? It strikes me that I always react in a similar way you did to many of his films. None of them are personal favorites, although I've enjoyed them. I've seen Mystery Train, Ghost Dog and Down by Law. I always kinda enjoy the films, sorta get what the director was trying to do, but there's always a gap, a displacement, of the film from what I wanted to see. Maybe there's some value in defying a viewer's expectations, but then I don't hate the films either.... My favorite Jarmusch film was Night on Earth which may have benefitted from the inherent imposition of a certain kind of discipline by having EVERYTHING take place in taxis. They should really port THAT film to DVD soon!
rmarkd	post #5  on November 9, 2003 - 4:33 PM PST   > On November 9, 2003 - 12:55 PM PDT hamano wrote: > --------------------------------- > rmarkd, I haven't seen Dead Man yet so I can't comment directly on it. Have you seen any other films by the same director? It strikes me that I always react in a similar way you did to many of his films. None of them are personal favorites, although I've enjoyed them. I've seen Mystery Train, Ghost Dog and Down by Law. I always kinda enjoy the films, sorta get what the director was trying to do, but there's always a gap, a displacement, of the film from what I wanted to see. Maybe there's some value in defying a viewer's expectations, but then I don't hate the films either.... > > My favorite Jarmusch film was Night on Earth which may have benefitted from the inherent imposition of a certain kind of discipline by having EVERYTHING take place in taxis. They should really port THAT film to DVD soon! > --------------------------------- Hey Hamano, I've seen Ghost Dog and Mystery Train. I really didn't care for Mystery Train, and hated Ghost Dog. Then again, I sometimes miss the point of a movie the first time around. Normally, I'd just figure a movie like Dead Man is one of those movies where people find things to like, but something about it makes me want to love it. I don't know if that makes sense... -Mark
rmarkd	post #6  on November 9, 2003 - 4:46 PM PST   Thanks, Patrick. (movie spoilers ahead) The movie seemed like it was too many things for me. I figured it was a spiritual journey of sorts, but then again, he does kill innocent people (the trader in the end). The three killers brought humor to a movie that I felt got in the way. I wanted to see this as a man existing in an industrial world slowly transitioning his perspective. But it doesn't unfold like that. Blake kills someone, goes on the lam, kills people looking to kill him, goes on a couple mind trips and finally dies. There are wonderful visuals and great lines in between, but the movie as a whole doesn't work for me. Perhaps I need to watch this movie again, keeping in mind some of your points. -Mark > On November 9, 2003 - 9:43 AM PDT PatrickCrain wrote: > --------------------------------- > My take on Dead Man is that Johnny Depp's William Blake is already "dead" at the beginning of the movie and is trapped somewhere between heaven and hell. Much like the Danny Aiello character in Jacob's Ladder, Gary Farmer's Nobody serves as the spiritual guide in Dead Man. Look, for instance, at the two towns in the film. One, the town of Machine, is a Sodom and Gommorah type of place with muddy streets, open fornication and it is somethig of a haven for malcontents and ne'er do wells. The word "machine" meant the beginning of the end for the old west as industry began to take over and the more naturalistic properties of the pioneers fell by the wayside. On the other hand, the spritual haven that Nobody leads William Blake to is constructed much in the same way (a narrowly lined street with its spritual pinnicle at the end of said street). On the street, there are various implications of a strong sprituality and lifestyle that is far removed from the town of Machine (in one shot, there is a sewing machine that is half buried in the ground!). As far as the rest of the film goes, there are overt spiritual references both spoken and visual (Dickinson disappears, Crispin Glover calls the frontier "hell," the three killers that go after Blake remind the viewer of the hounds of hell being unleashed, etc.). Anyway, that's my take on the film for whatever it's worth. > ---------------------------------
rmarkd	post #7  on November 9, 2003 - 5:12 PM PST   Hey dwhudson, Yeah, I read that thread, but it tangents off the point I wanted to discuss (as you said), hence the reason why I started a new thread. Do you happen to have an opinion on the movie? I read some of your posts and figure you'd have some great insights to the movie that I'm sure I missed. -Mark > On November 9, 2003 - 4:11 AM PDT dwhudson wrote: > --------------------------------- > Mark, a topic you might want to check out is the one on this film dpowers opened up in February. Unfortunately, we kind of swerved off topic, for which I'm partly responsible, but d's opening posts have some thoughts and quotes that might spark another question...? > ---------------------------------
hamano	post #8  on November 9, 2003 - 7:59 PM PST   > On November 9, 2003 - 4:33 PM PDT rmarkd wrote: > --------------------------------- > I've seen Ghost Dog and Mystery Train. I really didn't care for Mystery Train, and hated Ghost Dog. > --------------------------------- My reaction to both films was, "Cute". Maybe I just like the funny whimsical bits Jarmusch puts in his films, because of my rather facile appreciation of art cinemah. Maybe it's just my outlook on life. I think it helped a bit that I'd seen a LOT of The Sopranos on DVD prior to screening Ghost Dog. GD could be appreciated as one of those looney subplots Sopranos has sometimes. I really liked the friend with the ice cream truck - because I've done a lot of interpreting between Japanese and American clients over the years, I could appreciate the absurdity of that situation very well. SPOILERS! What I couldn't forgive about GD was that they showed him training by himself a lot, with his katana, and they never had a scene where he used it. I would have liked to see him use the sword in a kill, but barring that, I think the final showdown at the end would have been a 100% better if he went in with his katana drawn rather than the empty gun. He would have been shot dead either way, but a samurai should die with his sword in his hands if he's gonna die young. If you've read my posts in Kill Bill you might think I have a sword fetish or something, but I just feel that if a director shows a prop that significant, it's just good storytelling to use it somewhere. > --------------------------------- > Normally, I'd just figure a movie like Dead Man is one of those movies where people find things to like, but something about it makes me want to love it. > --------------------------------- Don't you hate it when that happens? Well, now I'm curious and I'm gonna have to put it on my queue. That queue just keeps getting bigger and bigger!
underdog	post #9  on November 10, 2003 - 11:42 AM PST   For one thing, I think it goes without saying that there's no right or wrong here -- if you didn't like Dead Man, or some of Jarmusch's other films, you're certainly not alone nor "wrong." Now, I happen to be one of those people who really like Dead Man, so I'll just give you my quick take on why that is. First of all, I agree with Patrick's summation, interpretation -- whether "right or wrong" it feels right to me, it's what I came up with after the, oh, third viewing or so. Second, I like the way he fuses humor with darkness, and imbues the old hat Western genre with metaphysics, philosophy and theology. I do think that if one goes into the film expecting a Western's typical pacing, they'll be disappointed, because it's slooooooow, at least in parts. And as much as I love Neil Young's score, it is very hypnotic. Catch you on a good day and you'll dig it, on a bad day when you haven't gotten enough sleep, and you won't last twenty minutes. I love Gary Farmer, too, one of the best Native American actors and extremely funny here. "Stupid f***ing white man." ultimately, I found the ending incredibly, and very unexpectedly so, moving, one of cinema's most haunting. The film could definitely stand a little editing here and there, even though I like the pace just fine there are a few bits that seem *unnecessarily* slow. For me the film is a lot like the Coen Brothers The Big Lebowski in one respect -- they were both films I sort of liked when first saw but was disappointed by, given how much I liked some of the other works by the directors. Upon subsequent viewings, I really dug into what the films were trying to be and let go of my own preconceptions, and just let them take me along their very ambling ways. Just my own two cents. Again, think what you want to think. Everyone has different taste. But I sure liked it. Craig
dwhudson	post #10  on November 11, 2003 - 1:37 AM PST   > Do you happen to have an opinion on the movie? Sorry, Mark, just catching up. It's been a while since I've seen it and I don't have a lot to add to what's been said here already, I'm afraid. Except maybe that in addition to that remarkable soundtrack Craig's just mentioned, the film also happens to be gorgeous to look at. All in all, I take it as a mediation on death with various tangents; Jarmusch knows there's no law that says those tangents have to follow a straight line or all add up to a single argument. In short, yes, thumbs up from me, too, but like Craig says, it's not the right movie for every night of the week.
hamano	post #11  on November 11, 2003 - 3:35 AM PST   Public Service Button to instantly queue Dead Man, if you were intrigued by this discussion, as I was. DON'T click if you've already seen this film or already added it to your queue!
PatrickCrain	post #12  on November 11, 2003 - 9:03 AM PST   > Normally, I'd just figure a movie like Dead Man is one of those movies where people find things to like, but something about it makes me want to love it. I don't know if that makes sense... > --------------------------------- I know this feeling. Both Zabriskie Point and Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garica were movies that had enough bits and pieces that haunted me until I grew to love the films (whatever their flaws). Oddly, though, most people hate these two films. I don't know. I'm a sucker for atmospehere. I wish these two were on DVD so I could post a thread on at least one of them but I have faith that MGM will put them out someday (hell, I'd settle for straight-from-the-laserdisc transfers since they both looked great in that format).
kodack	post #13  on April 16, 2004 - 4:34 PM PDT   Listen, it's allright to not like a movie everybody else does, don't feel bad about not "getting it". When I watched this movie I didn't "get it" I just went with the flow and I'm happy for the experience. The movie reminded me a lot of a very rare movie "A boy called hate" about a teenage runaway who finds a weird companionship with a native american wildman. > On November 8, 2003 - 9:58 PM PST rmarkd wrote: > --------------------------------- > I've read various reviews about this movie, and many people seem to love it, but don't give "for dummies" reasons that I can understand (I'm not a film student, film buff, or philosopher). Seems to me that many positive reviews add fluff terms to make it sound like a grand epic, but really don't say much at all. > > Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I hated this movie. This is one of those movies that haunt me, much like Mulholland Drive does. But with MD, I get something out of it; the movie makes sense to me. Not so for Dead Man. I feel there is something that I've missed, but maybe it's atmosphere + haunting music + wonderful acting by Depp. It's weird, I *want* to love this movie, but can't find a reason. > > So, is this just haunting visual movie, or is there some deeper meaning that I just missed? > > -Mark > > ---------------------------------
calgodot	post #14  on September 24, 2004 - 8:36 PM PDT   > On November 8, 2003 - 9:58 PM PST rmarkd wrote: > So, is this just haunting visual movie, or is there some > deeper meaning that I just missed? WHAT I GET OUT OF DEAD MAN: Beautiful black and white film stock. Jarmusch goes for the grit of the American West and manages to find beauty. Gary Farmer's performance - refreshing, funny, the true heart of the film. Interesting take on the road movie, a recurrent form for Jarmusch. Outstanding musical score by Neil Young. As for deeper meaning: death as it relates to life, life as it relates to death. Each a reflection of each. Existential acid Western. Deeper meaning is sometimes lost on me: I'm a "stupid f***ing white man." .