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Is a anime harem really a harem?
	Topic by: fdguarino Posted: September 1, 2004 - 9:18 PM PDT Last Reply: October 1, 2004 - 4:35 PM PDT

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author	topic: Is a anime harem really a harem?
fdguarino	post #1  on September 1, 2004 - 9:18 PM PDT   Hi All, I've been watching anime for a bit now, and I've seen a bunch of the harem anime like Tenchi, Photon, Love Hina, etc. These series usually have one guy who is fought over by several women. But what has stood out is that I've never seen a harem anime where any of these women are similar in any significant way. In fact, in most of these, each of the ladies has one area (and in some, only one area) in which they excel or stand out. It is almost like each of them represents one (or maybe just a few) aspect(s) of a ideal woman. What I'm suggesting is that the harem in these anime, really represents the different fragments of what the writers view as the ideal Japanese woman. In which case, its not really a harem at all! Well, just a thought. But since the anime area has been completely devoid of any real thought recently, I figured we needed a good discussion topic. -FDGuarino
NLee	post #2  on September 2, 2004 - 11:03 AM PDT   > On September 1, 2004 - 9:18 PM PDT fdguarino wrote: > --------------------------------- > What I'm suggesting is that the harem in these anime, really represents the different fragments of what the writers view as the ideal Japanese woman. In which case, its not really a harem at all! > --------------------------------- By the same token, let's assume that I'm dating DBooher and IronS at the same time, but that is not considered cheating becase one has a big BOO_ and the other one have a big _S_? Hey! I agree with your logic 100%. Though I'm not sure how the girls will react to this. Back to harem animes: somehow there's always at least three types of female characters fighting for the love of one male character. Take Saber Marionette J for example: Lime represent the childish and innocent type, Cherry represent the intellegent and motherly type, Bloodberry represent the strong and physical type. In Evangelion, the main computer consists of three units that represent the creator as a woman, as a mother, and as a scientist. Etc. Why? I guess it is just more fun to see radically different girls tripping themselves over one helpless male character. That's probably the manga artist's wet dream, at least.
dh22	post #3  on September 2, 2004 - 12:26 PM PDT   > On September 2, 2004 - 11:03 AM PDT NLee wrote: > --------------------------------- > one has a big BOO_ and the other one have a big _S > --------------------------------- Which one has which? I'd interested in knowing.
hamano	post #4  on September 2, 2004 - 1:02 PM PDT   > > On September 2, 2004 - 11:03 AM PDT NLee wrote: > > --------------------------------- > > one has a big BOO_ A big BOO_? Don't they usually come in pairs? > >and the other one have a big _S Oh, I can't comment on that one. In the real world, IF you were the Sultan of Grunai or something, and you could have a real harem, would you stock it with a bunch of beauties of the same type, or would you mix it up and get one or two of each type? That's what you gotta ask yourself. As for anime harems, this convention is derived from a small theatrical movement that started in Kyoto and Osaka in the late 1940's and went to the mid 1950's. This was the Geigaku theater troupe, which was started by 15 out-of-work Geishas whose livelihoods had been adversely affected by the proliferation of artless no-frills prostitutes who catered to the needs of US servicemen and newly prosperous Japanese businessmen. Unlike the burlesque style Takarazuka all-female troupe, Geigaku plays revolved around a single male character (played by one of the women) who interacted in different ways (comic, tragic, romantic) with a revolving cast of stock female characters, and all the characters were Japanese. There was Machiko, the "big sister" or maternal figure who was a bit of a ditz but really nice, Kyoko the "little sister" who was always energetic and upbeat, Ruriko the worldly and sexy woman who is a bit of a vamp, and Sachiko the smart but shy quiet girl, among others. I used to think the stock characters idea originally came from the COMMEDIA DELL'ARTE, with such famous figures such as Arlecchino, Capitano, Colombina, I Dottori, Gratiano, Pantalone and Pulcinella, but apparently the Geigaku women went back a bit further for inspiration. They based their stories and characters on a Greek theatrical movement called Gynodiskalia which had plays with very similar plots and stock characters. Lysimache, the nurturing Big Sister character, Lampito the energetic or athletic girl, Kleonike the smart girl, Ismenia the pretty and vain one, Myrrhine the helpful one. What made the Gynodiskalia unique was that all the characters (including male characters) were played by women, who didn't wear masks. Gynodiskalia was banned from major states such as Athens and had to go underground, and apparently just disappeared in less than 30 years.
jross3	post #5  on September 2, 2004 - 1:06 PM PDT   For a real harem, you'd need to have a lot more, uh, action going on - most of these so-called "harems" are pretty much just situational comedies starring women and one or two men. Not that that's a bad thing. But it is clearly a slightly innacurate description. I'm not so sure that each woman in a harem is necessarily a different facet of an ideal woman - sometimes it clearly is, usually intentionally, using situations to contrast the two and sometimes a third character that balances the aspects of each. A lot of the time, it's just that the characters are fairly two-dimensional and not subject to much development - Galaxy Angel, anyone (not exactly a harem, more of an "ideal harem" - a harem without the useless guy)? In this case, each member of the "harem" is unique, but combining their attributes wouldn't necessarily result in an ideal (or even desirable) woman. It's not even entirely possible - one of Forte's positive attributes is her maturity, and Mint and Vanilla both have that "moe" thing... I can't exactly imagine how you could combine these without creating a scary, scary monster.
NLee	post #6  on September 2, 2004 - 1:43 PM PDT   > On September 2, 2004 - 1:02 PM PDT hamano wrote: > --------------------------------- ... Geigaku plays revolved around a single male character (played by one of the women) who interacted in different ways (comic, tragic, romantic) with a revolving cast of stock female characters... > So that's where the "Imperial Flower Group" in Sakura Wars originated from. I learned something new today. Thanks hamano! > A big BOO_? Don't they usually come in pairs? > Ah so, I learned another new thing today. Thanks again, hamano!
sinisterguffaw	post #7  on September 2, 2004 - 2:52 PM PDT   Certain ones of the Maid style harem anime are very much more the "everyone is the same" harem. Particularly the one I can't remember right now because I only have it on fansubs and don't currently have access to my home computer (when will that new monitor arrive?!!!). I wanna say Hanayuko Maid Tai, but when I say that it sounds wrong...
NLee	post #8  on September 2, 2004 - 6:37 PM PDT   Here's something I always wanted to know (but was too afraid to ask): Is "BOOB" singular or plural? Should we say "A BOOB" or "A pair of BOOBS"? Alone the same line of thought, how about BUTT/ASS? They also come in pairs, right? How come we don't hear people say "I'm gonna kick your ASSES?"
hamano	post #9  on September 2, 2004 - 7:14 PM PDT   NLee, there's only guys here... you gotta go to another thread and ask Bowwow or someone...
jross3	post #10  on September 2, 2004 - 8:21 PM PDT   > On September 2, 2004 - 6:37 PM PDT NLee wrote: > --------------------------------- > Here's something I always wanted to know (but was too afraid to ask): > > Is "BOOB" singular or plural? Should we say "A BOOB" or "A pair of BOOBS"? > > Alone the same line of thought, how about BUTT/ASS? They also come in pairs, right? How come we don't hear people say "I'm gonna kick your ASSES?" > > --------------------------------- Boobs is plural, as well as: Boobies, ho-hos, jubblies, and so on. A boob is just one of the pair; like pants, they are rarely seen individually, but they are two and separate. There are, however, a few singular "boob" words that referr to both boobs (rack, stack, her (as in, "hey, look at her"), so on as such). An ass is divided into two cheeks. You wouldn't necessatily tell some to kiss your asses unless you have some weird farm fantasies or a major physical deformity. You can kick asses, of course - "I'm gonna kick all ya'll's asses!" "One of your asses is kind of dragging." "The town kids are always riding my asses!" "That's him, officer! That's the guy that fondeled my asses!" I don't have any boob jokes. There's only so many ways to use "Blue-Footed Booby", and none of them are that funny.
Yowanda	post #11  on September 3, 2004 - 8:05 AM PDT   > On September 2, 2004 - 7:14 PM PDT hamano wrote: > --------------------------------- > NLee, there's only guys here... you gotta go to another thread and ask Bowwow or someone... > --------------------------------- Ooo, I'm here. Well, jross already gave it a good explanation, I think. Definately 2 boobs and 1 butt. I did see an interesting thing on Discovery or some channel once that talked about sex stuff. It said that a women's clevage is supposed to mirror the top of a butt, because we evolved from monkeys (who look at each others butts), but we're more upright, so butts aren't as available. That's probably a pretty poor explanation. Gomen. But it was pretty weird.
hamano	post #12  on September 3, 2004 - 8:39 AM PDT   Oh NO, we're seriously off-topic here... what's boobies possibly got to do with harems? I'd appreciate it if you guys (and gal) get off this boobs and butts thing and get back to the serious task of analyzing the harem phenomenon!
Yowanda	post #13  on September 3, 2004 - 8:43 AM PDT   > On September 3, 2004 - 8:39 AM PDT hamano wrote: > --------------------------------- > Oh NO, we're seriously off-topic here... what's boobies possibly got to do with harems? I'd appreciate it if you guys (and gal) get off this boobs and butts thing and get back to the serious task of analyzing the harem phenomenon! > --------------------------------- Come on now, what would a harem be without some good boobies? Just a bunch of eunchs (did I spell that right?) standing around. That's pretty boring. Of course, maybe a good question would be, would a good harem have a good varity of boobies? Lots of different sizes and such? There, see, we're back on topic!
Catullus	post #14  on September 3, 2004 - 9:05 AM PDT   I think its Eunuchs... as for Harems no comment, they are popular in anime because we all want one :) Or maybe just me.
hamano	post #15  on September 3, 2004 - 9:24 AM PDT   Thank you, Yowanda. Now, what do the rest of you think? What's a good distribution for boob types and sizes in a good anime harem? It strikes me that some shows like Galaxy Angel are a bit extreme in this department, with at least one character who displays her AWESOMELY well endowed chest by choosing a very low-cut gravity-defying costume (I guess you can make a case that being in space counteracts the "gravity" argument). I personally prefer more modest harems with someone like Urd filling the "sexy" role rather than someone like Forte Stollen.
fdguarino	post #16  on September 3, 2004 - 4:43 PM PDT   Well endowed women are the staple of anime, not the exception. In fact, usually the less-endowed women seem to be there just for the "small" jokes. -FDGuarino > On September 3, 2004 - 9:24 AM PDT hamano wrote: > --------------------------------- > Thank you, Yowanda. > > Now, what do the rest of you think? What's a good distribution for boob types and sizes in a good anime harem? It strikes me that some shows like Galaxy Angel are a bit extreme in this department, with at least one character who displays her AWESOMELY well endowed chest by choosing a very low-cut gravity-defying costume (I guess you can make a case that being in space counteracts the "gravity" argument). I personally prefer more modest harems with someone like Urd filling the "sexy" role rather than someone like Forte Stollen. > ---------------------------------
hamano	post #17  on September 3, 2004 - 4:54 PM PDT   I'm not talking about well-endowed women... I'm talking about the aforementioned Stollen and her ilk. The ones that would be like 50DD in real life.
jross3	post #18  on September 3, 2004 - 5:10 PM PDT   > On September 3, 2004 - 4:46 PM PDT fdguarino wrote: > --------------------------------- > Haven't seen it, and it looks like girl-only fare. Have any guys (other than Hamano ;) ) seen it and can vouch that it has something for men. > --------------------------------- I've seen it. It's definately a girl's show... and I really have no justification for liking it as a guy. If not for my previous shoujo background, I might never have rented it (I can't remember why I finally did, in fact). I won't recomend it, but it's only based on the fact that half of the audiance is a 14-year-old boy who might or might not think girl stuff is for girls and big sissies. On the other hand, it couldn't hurt to give it a shot, but I have my doubts...
jross3	post #19  on September 3, 2004 - 5:12 PM PDT   > On September 3, 2004 - 5:10 PM PDT jross3 wrote: > --------------------------------- > > On September 3, 2004 - 4:46 PM PDT fdguarino wrote: > > --------------------------------- > > Haven't seen it, and it looks like girl-only fare. Have any guys (other than Hamano ;) ) seen it and can vouch that it has something for men. > > --------------------------------- > > I've seen it. It's definately a girl's show... and I really have no justification for liking it as a guy. If not for my previous shoujo background, I might never have rented it (I can't remember why I finally did, in fact). > I won't recomend it, but it's only based on the fact that half of the audiance is a 14-year-old boy who might or might not think girl stuff is for girls and big sissies. > On the other hand, it couldn't hurt to give it a shot, but I have my doubts... > --------------------------------- Damn it all to heck. This is an interesting bug. I had a great reply for this, too, with good links and stuff. I'll get back to Forte and stuff in the near future.
jross3	post #20  on September 3, 2004 - 5:54 PM PDT   > On September 3, 2004 - 4:54 PM PDT hamano wrote: > --------------------------------- > I'm not talking about well-endowed women... I'm talking about the aforementioned Stollen and her ilk. The ones that would be like 50DD in real life. > --------------------------------- WELL ANYWAY, like I meant to say earlier. Forte's the "Older veteran" type, while Ranpha is the "sexy" type. Milfeulle is the sweet, helpful type. These personality roles are linked to breast size! For example, Forte's overly-huge breasts will appeal to men who prefer "extremely matured" women and insist that bigger is always better. (she likes alcohol) Ranpha's proportions are probably close to the average "most favored" breast size. Large, shapely, and bouncy - probably what many men would call the ideal large breast. (she likes spicy food) Milfeulle has small(er), subdued breasts, which appeal to the "more than a handful is a waste" type of men. Rather than being the obviously sexy figure Ranpha is, she's meant to be more subtly attractive. (she likes sweet foods and confectionaries) I don't see how Mint or Vanilla would fit into a similar scale, but I guess moe fans aren't too concerned about that.

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