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Discuss all topics related to anime.
561

Seen Koi Kaze?
Topic by: anima
Posted: January 14, 2007 - 1:53 PM PST
Last Reply: January 19, 2007 - 11:13 AM PST

page  1  2      prev | next
author topic: Seen Koi Kaze?
anima
post #1  on January 14, 2007 - 1:53 PM PST  
I just watched the first volume of this thought provoking anime. I have read the review on GC and on Amazon. I would really like to discuss this a bit with others who have seen it as well.
Battie
post #2  on January 14, 2007 - 9:03 PM PST  
Never seen it, chica. Will try to check it out at some point though.

Why'd you like it? And just how pervy is it? *is very afraid*
NLee
post #3  on January 14, 2007 - 10:08 PM PST  
> On January 14, 2007 - 9:03 PM PST Battie wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> Never seen it, chica. Will try to check it out at some point though.
>
> Why'd you like it? And just how pervy is it? *is very afraid*
> ---------------------------------

I have and I like it. It is in fact very sensitive and touching. Nothing pervy about it - except for the subject matter. Highly recommended.
Catullus
post #4  on January 15, 2007 - 12:53 AM PST  
Ive seen it (not recently) thought it was intelligently done considering the subject mateial, that said its still disturbing and pervy.

Since you haven't seen it all wont spoil the ending for you but the ending is SUPER disturbing.

The real problem I have is that the guy is pretty huge as far as size goes and the girl looks extremely small in comparison.
It makes it seem like even greater age difference than it supposedly is and thus makes it more than just incest and bordering on pedophilia.

Both are disturbing on their own but combined ya not good at all.

If someone asked me if they should watch it or not I'd say not, I dont regret watching it but I wouldn't watch it or something like it again.
NLee
post #5  on January 15, 2007 - 7:54 AM PST  
> On January 15, 2007 - 12:53 AM PST Catullus wrote:
> ---------------------------------
>... The real problem I have is that the guy is pretty huge as far as size goes and the girl looks extremely small in comparison.
> ---------------------------------

You have a dirty mind, Cat!
hamano
post #6  on January 15, 2007 - 3:00 PM PST  
My comments include spoilers. WARNING!!

It was fairly well done technically, so I liked it most of the way through. But the resolution is a loser, unless you think incestuous statutory rape is OK. In a way it's a fearless exploration of a socially taboo subject area.
Personally I find it hard to justify morally except as an exercise in freedom of speech and the right to free expression in the arts.
underdog
post #7  on January 15, 2007 - 3:35 PM PST  
The member reviews for Koi Kaze seem pretty useful, too, as far as gauging whether it's one you want to see or not. Looks well done, lovely to look at, and with a fairly high creep-factor potential.
Ursus
post #8  on January 15, 2007 - 4:59 PM PST  
Having seen it, I do think it is exceptional and worth watching. Yes, the subject matter is VERY tough for some to look past, yet despite that, the series is quite mature, not dismissing the weight of its subject matter with a lecherous grin or pervy wink as some might think. That being said, it isn't for everyone; it requires an equal level of maturity to view objectively (not unlike the work of Nabokov, which is hailed as genius).
hamano
post #9  on January 15, 2007 - 9:28 PM PST  
Duh, you pervy ursine pederast! It ain't "mature" if they don't deal maturely with the consequences of the decision the characters made in the end. They're gonna go off somewhere and pass themselves off as a normal couple? Or they gonna head for the Ozarks where they'll fit right in? Whatever the situation, a child, no matter how "passionate" she might be about what she thinks is true love, is being exploited here by an adult who should know better (especially since he is in a position where he would normally be in the "protector" role). If it was incest between two screwed up adults or two screwed up children, fine. But if you're getting your rocks off watching a grown man doing his emotionally stunted kid sister, then holding up the show as a great example of anime, then I think you are complicit in the endorsement of such behavior. Then you're no better than the older brother, who jerks off every night thinking about his little sister's panties until he finally gets her to "open up" to him.

Next you'll be looking for anime about "Nice Nazis" and "Catholic Priests who Really Love Children"... KoiKaze stops just short of endorsing child rape (hey, if you're heart's in the right place, you can damn well get away with it, despite all the misgivings expressed by your friends and colleagues). You really think that's what Nabokov was up to?
hamano
post #10  on January 16, 2007 - 9:15 AM PST  
I read the review on GC for the first disc, and I basically agree with it. Based on all the episodes up to the second to last one or so I would have said pretty much the same thing. But the "Decision" at the end I think crosses the line because that decision is basically treated as a normal if unusual one within the range of possible human sexual relationships. You can argue it that way, but then you might as well join NAMBLA because they use similar "narratives" to justify actually committing "taboo" sexual acts. You can call KoiKaze a namGla blueprint, I guess.

I think KoiKaze is a sensitively scripted quality anime series, but in the end I can't endorse a story that says "in certain situations adults should be able to have sex with consenting children, even if they are part of the same family... maybe it violates a social taboo, but if you're careful and quiet you can get away with it"

Get it through your thick heads that Nanoka is a VICTIM here of the worst kind of predation/exploitation. The series bamboozles the viewer into sympathizing with her and her victimizer... you can draw interesting parallels to Grave of the Fireflies, which really IS a tragic masterpiece. In Grave the little sister falls helpless victim to her older brother's pride (he's too immature and too prideful to seek help that could save them in the aftermath of WW2). In turn the brother also pays for his mistakes, with his life. That kind of ending could have redeemed KoiKaze, maybe.... but the carefully optimistic ending of KoiKaze ultimately paints a different picture, one that whispers, "good luck" to the characters as they sneak off into their brave new world.

If they'd been co-workers, or adult siblings, or two gay guys, or a man and his dog even, I would have also said, "good luck"... but adult/child? I ain't buying it. I say, keep it zipped until she's an adult!
hamano
post #11  on January 16, 2007 - 9:24 AM PST  
According to the series official website the brother, Koshiro, is 28 and Nanoka is 15, by the way. Travis Bickle, I've got another job for you!
Battie
post #12  on January 16, 2007 - 5:58 PM PST  
I haven't seen any of the series, but I kind of get where Ursus is coming from. (And seeing as I'm young enough to *remember* being fifteen, I find it hard to believe she's a "victim.")

My question is...you've put her brother in a predator's role, but the summary (and the fact that it didn't occur till the end) sounds like he wasn't. While I neither approve of incest or statutory rape (an adult should have more sense than violate a law), the latter is not a black-and-white issue and fifteen is hardly a child (unless you're speaking of her mind...and if she WAS a child in her mind, then eww).

You're probably looking at this from a father's POV, while I see it from a young woman's POV. However morally wrong it might be, it sounds like a far cry from endorsing pedophilia or rape. (Yeah, let me direct you to the hentai section of GreenCine...)

The guy would be a predator in my mind if he actively pursued the girl, even after she said no. Again, an adult should use more common sense and self-restraint, but there's a big difference between a man who chases after teenagers in general and one who kind "falls into" the situation. It's a Predator vs. Idiot situation.


On the other hand, I've heard (though I don't know myself) that some Japanese men pursue inappropriate relationships with young women (and given the nature of most hentai, this wouldn't surprise me if it's true). This anime series could be considered a way of giving such men a guilt-free excuse as to why they did something most Westerners wouldn't, if only because of social convention. But I still maintain there's a vast difference between predator and a man who should've known better.
hamano
post #13  on January 16, 2007 - 6:17 PM PST  
If you see any of it you'll find that the sister seems somewhat less mature than her friends who are the same age as her. Of course I realize that kids can be sexually active in their tweens nowadays, and fifteen might be "acceptable" to some people. If she was having a sexually active consensual relationship with someone her own age or even as old as a college student maybe, I wouldn't be so troubled. But in KoiKaze we're clearly talking about an adult close to 30 and a kid about half that age.

Prurient interest aside, other films and stories that deal with such a relationship usually conclude tragically. I don't see that as a matter of social mores asserting itself as much as there being a line that shouldn't be crossed. Endorsing the sexual exploitation of minors by an adult is such a line.

On paper the character is 15 but the way she is portrayed she could be anywhere between 12 and 16, I think. Wink wink nudge nudge, eh?
hamano
post #14  on January 16, 2007 - 6:25 PM PST  
> It's a Predator vs. Idiot situation.

True, but it's hard to tell where the line is between the two. Better to err on the side of caution, no? I bet the Catholic priests who molested children ranged all the way from Predators to Idiots. Also their victims probably ranged from actively resisting and traumatized to those who might have been complicit in some twisted way and those who survived/adjusted afterwards to a normal adult life. I don't discount the possibility that the characters in KoiKaze, if the plot was extended further, might be able to find a new secret life away from anyone that used to know them as brother and sister. But the fact that the series even leaves that possibility open in the end is morally irresponsible at best and to me reprehensible. To me that's the mortal flaw of this series.
Catullus
post #15  on January 16, 2007 - 11:26 PM PST  

On paper the character is 15 but the way she is portrayed she could be anywhere between 12 and 16, I think. Wink wink nudge nudge, eh?


I agree with that, she really looks like shes 12. They seem to draw her differently from different angles, she looks very very young a lot of the time.

Basically the plot is completely unrealistic (that the brother and sister didn't know each other because the mother and son haven't seen each other for 15 years and the daughter and father haven't seen each other for 15 years and the brother and sister presumably never met or if they did she was a baby)

I dont know how it is in Japan but even at the time I was watching it I was like thats ****ing BS

Now when I watched it I didn't know how it was going to end up, I knew vaguely what it was about (Incest) Now I wont argue that its well done, the animation QUALITY is high (I said High not good because they drew the size difference between them that makes the anime far more disgusting than it would have been) and its got tasteful music and they do well at implementing the idea of strong feelings being involved...

That said you CANNOT defend this anime, there is no ground to stand on, the story is ripped straight out of a poorly written hentai. Even the Brother agonizes over what he is feeling and thinks that he is a piece of trash (rightfully so) If that is what the anime was about, id be like ok, there are people out there with those feelings thats fine.

Spoilers Now the real problem is that somehow the story works out so that this sick MOFO who jacks off while thinking about his sister gets his sick feelings returned by her, they have sex, fall in love although I can't honestly feel comfortable calling it that and then they run off together to where they aren't known so they can be together... She is really messed up in the head because she just wants to take care of her brother??? I dont really get it.

The issue is that they condone this type of behavior and there is no immediate consequence apparent as of the ending.
If nothing else it encourages people who have these feelings to act on it and glorifies it. Luckily this kind of trash is generally stuck in hentai storylines and I dont run across it barely ever. Personally I did get into the story to a point where I was hoping for the guy to get with his co-worker and get over his sick sister fetish, I was strongly disappointed.


Battie
post #16  on January 17, 2007 - 1:11 AM PST  
> On January 16, 2007 - 6:25 PM PST hamano wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> > It's a Predator vs. Idiot situation.
>
> True, but it's hard to tell where the line is between the two. Better to err on the side of caution, no?
>

This is true, which is why I wouldn't want the current statutory rape laws taken away, even though I'm sure it sweeps in a few unknowing idiots in its wake. (Ie, the guy who sleeps with a teenager after she's told him she's 18+.)

>
I bet the Catholic priests who molested children ranged all the way from Predators to Idiots. Also their victims probably ranged from actively resisting and traumatized to those who might have been complicit in some twisted way and those who survived/adjusted afterwards to a normal adult life. I don't discount the possibility that the characters in KoiKaze, if the plot was extended further, might be able to find a new secret life away from anyone that used to know them as brother and sister. But the fact that the series even leaves that possibility open in the end is morally irresponsible at best and to me reprehensible. To me that's the mortal flaw of this series.
> ---------------------------------

Indeed, I can go with that.


However, since anima hasn't watched the entire series, I'm guessing we either ruined it for her, or made her glad she didn't get to the end, rotfl.

Let's talk uh...I'm behind on my anime, so I don't know. x_x
hamano
post #17  on January 17, 2007 - 5:51 AM PST  
Like Cat says, the story does require a farfetched situation (the brother and sister don't know each other) but I just wrote that off as one of yer anime boilerplate story premises. I'm not so disturbed by KoiKaze itself (hey I watched it all the way through!) as much as the number of anime fans who rate it Very Good through Masterpiece on the Anime News Network viewer poll. I'm not saying all these people are jumping on the "screw your little sister" bandwagon, but it makes you think about all the Germans who saw films like Triumph of the Will and felt better about joining the Nazi Party. Personally I don't see much difference.... Koi Kaze is a kind of propaganda film.
NLee
post #18  on January 17, 2007 - 7:27 AM PST  
> On January 16, 2007 - 9:15 AM PST hamano wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> If they'd been co-workers, or adult siblings, or two gay guys, or a man and his dog even, I would have also said, "good luck"... but adult/child? I ain't buying it. I say, keep it zipped until she's an adult!
> ---------------------------------

Now now hamano, I can totally picture a woman doing it with her dog... but a man and his dog? That just disgusting! (Unless they are both from Massachusetts, then in that case it is perfectly acceptable)

Assuming that you actually meant "a man and his bitch", one important question remains: is the bitch at least 2.3 years old? If not, then isn't that still consisidered "statutory rape"? Are you going to tell us that "American statutory rape laws don't apply to Japanese bitches"?
hamano
post #19  on January 17, 2007 - 8:09 AM PST  
I'm not aware of any current statutes prohibiting the rape of animals of either sex of any age by human males, in Japan OR the USA. So rape away, NLee, you're safe from prosecution.
Battie
post #20  on January 17, 2007 - 7:23 PM PST  
> On January 17, 2007 - 8:09 AM PST hamano wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> I'm not aware of any current statutes prohibiting the rape of animals of either sex of any age by human males, in Japan OR the USA. So rape away, NLee, you're safe from prosecution.
> ---------------------------------

As the donkey guy in Clerks II would say, it only lands you in jail for a little while and a fine. Oh, an confiscation of the animal.



...Waaaay off-topic, even for me. Lmao.
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