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GreenCine Movie Talk
	In The Theaters I just saw it and boy does it...	318

Bad Santa
	Topic by: ColonelKong Posted: November 18, 2003 - 8:13 PM PST Last Reply: January 8, 2004 - 10:49 AM PST

author	topic: Bad Santa
ColonelKong	post #1  on November 18, 2003 - 8:13 PM PST   Who else is really looking forward to seeing this next week? If the Disney brass hate it, that's surely a good sign. I liked Crumb and Ghost World quite a bit, so I'm looking forward to seeing another movie from Terry Zwigoff.
Cinenaut	post #2  on November 19, 2003 - 9:04 AM PST   Apparently, the stories about Disney being shocked are not real, if what I read in IMDB.com's studio brief is true: Was Disney "Shocked" by 'Bad Santa' Movie? A report that originally appeared on the Ain't It Cool News website claiming that Disney execs were "totally horrified" when they screened the upcoming Miramax film Bad Santa has been picked up by a number of British newspapers. "[Billy Bob] Thornton Film Shocks Disney," headlined one report. Another said that it "shows Father Christmas drinking, stealing and chasing girls." A third reported: "Gobsmacked executives rubbed their eyes at scenes of the filthy Father Christmas bonking while kiddies are left queuing outside his grotto." Most of the reports carried a quote from an unnamed source close to Disney chairman Michael Eisner that was cited in the AICN article: "Nothing appears sacred anymore. This is just not in the spirit of Walt Disney." However, a Disney spokesperson told today's (Tuesday) New York Daily News: "No one [at Disney] has expressed any complaints to us. Over time there have been great stories about bad Santas who have redeemed themselves. This is one of them. The humor in the film speaks for itself." http://www.imdb.com/StudioBrief/#1 So... the movie is not necessarily good. Hehe.
kamapuaa	post #3  on November 19, 2003 - 12:23 PM PST   > Who else is really looking forward to seeing this next week? If the Disney brass hate it, that's surely a good sign. I liked Crumb and Ghost World quite a bit, so I'm looking forward to seeing another movie from Terry Zwigoff. From what I know of Zwigoff and his style, I just can't imagine him doing any kind of Disney Holiday movie. The humor in his first two movies has come from observing the quirks of talented losers. The best moments seem to be his own pet peeves and favorite observations. I can't imagine how such a personal film-maker will apply this to Billy Bob Thorton as a drunk Santa, or to Bernie Mac. Of course it could be the formula for something so quirky and anti-Disney, that it comes out great. But if Greencine added a gambling feature, I would take the odds that it just won't work.
ColonelKong	post #4  on November 19, 2003 - 1:02 PM PST   I thought Jeffery Wells had some interesting things to say about Bad Santa in his MoviePoopShoot.Com column (I gotta disagree with him about Intolerable Cruelty being the second-funniest movie of the year, I'm a Coen Bros. fan, and I thought it was easily their weakest film[and I liked The Hudsucker Proxy fer cryin' out loud!]). He mentions the story about the Disney execs hating it, even if that story isn't true, hasn't Bad Santa become somewhat controversial like the Santa Claus-themed Silent Night, Deadly Night? Anyway, here's the clipping from Wells' column: Wonderful Drooling Santa I saw Terry Zwigoff's BAD SANTA (Dimension, Nov. 26) last Friday afternoon, and I was howling and pissing my pants all through it. And I don't usually laugh at movies -- I tend to go "heh-heh" most of the time, and sometimes not even that. This is the dirtiest, smelliest, most irreverent and most thoroughly foul-minded Xmas movie ever made, and is hands-down one of my favorite all-time comedies. I'm looking forward to owning it on DVD and watching it every Xmas for years to come. It's so much fun to think about I'm kind-of channeling Billy Bob's alcoholic asshole Santa character, Willie T. Stokes, as I write this. And my first Billy Bob declaration is that the real McCoy got it a bit wrong when he said "this is a story that brings the sensibility of SOUTH PARK to the spirit of IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE." That suggests the film has some kind of joyously happy ending, when in fact the ending feels fake and jerry-rigged. But it's okay. Don't even think about the finale. Just concentrate on the first 85% to 90% that makes you laugh, and everything'll be fine and you'll tell all your friends to go see it and lose it. The set-up is basically about a department-store Santa (Thornton) and his pint-sized partner Marcus (Tony Cox, last seen in ME, MYSELF AND IRENE) who bring their jobs to an end each Xmas by robbing their employers blind. The story is about the alcoholic, self-loathing Willie slowly becoming a mensch after becoming friends with a lonely fat kid (Brett Kelly), and gradually stepping into the shoes of his absent dad. The script is credited to Glenn Ficarra and John Requa, but the basic idea came from executive producers Joel and Ethan Coen. The press kit says their basic pitch was "a bad Santa suddenly changes." It sure as hell feels like a Coen Bros. thing, which is also a way of saying that the sensibilities of the Coens and Zwigoff are very much in synch. I've been told the Coens did a polish of the SANTA script at some point. SANTA has the same smart-but-surly, fuck-it-all, can-life-get-any-shittier? 'tude I got from what I'm now calling the second funniest film of the year, the Coens' INTOLERABLE CRUELTY. The difference is that while the main characters were flush and relatively sober in CRUELTY, Willie is a low-rent dirtbag who lives hand-to-mouth. Just as the Coens' THE BIG LEBOWSKI had a total pothead sensibility, BAD SANTA is fueled by alcoholic loser humor. I guess this means I relate to loser attitudes on some level, but who doesn't? Who hasn't paid a visit to the pits of despair now and then? Put it this way: The more you despise cheap holiday sentiment, the more you're sickened by the rampant mega-malling of Xmas, the more you want to strangle LOVE ACTUALLY...the more you're going to love BAD SANTA. The supporting cast is clever and funny all around the track. John Ritter (his final big-screen performance) is extremely subtle and underplayed as a wimpy store manager. Bernie Mac is hilarious as a mall detective -- it makes you marvel at how McG wasted him in CHARLIE'S ANGELS: FULL THROTTLE. Lauren Graham plays the token Zwigoff fantasy female -- a hot woman in her mid 20s who's into schtupping a drunk in his late 40s. Yeah, right. One of Matt Drudge's sources has told him "top Disney executives' (read: Michael Eisner) who keep tabs on the Disney-owned Miramax and Dimension Films, are perturbed over Zwigoff's film because it messes with their pro-family image. I don't know if this is true, but if so it indicates Eisner and his homies have a big stick up their butts. "Nothing appears sacred anymore...this is just not in the spirit of Walt Disney," Drudge quoted a source close to the Big Man. He's right -- BAD SANTA is not in the spirit of Walt Disney or Mickey Mouse or Goofy or that big fat hippo who dances on her tippy-toes in a ballet skirt in FANTASIA. Now, will whoever said that please leave the fucking room and close the door on his her way out? Because you're bringing everyone down. Thank you.
ColonelKong	post #5  on November 19, 2003 - 1:12 PM PST   One of the last lines of dialog from Tony Scott's The Last Boy Scout comes to mind: "Satan Claus is out there, and he's getting stronger all the time."
transom	post #6  on November 22, 2003 - 12:19 PM PST   Yeah, I've been looking forward to this one ever since I heard about it. I heard the F-bombs are a-droppin' like in every other sentence, and that even though it seems like a dystopic Santa movie, I guess there's a bit of a character change at the end (something about the real spirit of Christmas), but it's not your normal copout. I'm also glad they're not milking the fact that it's got John Ritter in it.
hamano	post #7  on November 22, 2003 - 1:54 PM PST   Owen Gleiberman, the reviewer for EW, who liked Ghost World and Crumb, just gave this film a D. He called the film "the rancid, one-note Bad Santa, inexplicably directed by Terry Zwigoff." D is the same rating he gave to The Cat in the Hat in the same issue.
dwhudson	post #8  on November 23, 2003 - 3:22 AM PST   I was just looking at these... it does sound like this is going to be one of those 'love it or hate it' movies.
artifex	post #9  on November 26, 2003 - 12:29 PM PST   > On November 22, 2003 - 12:19 PM PST BHaughey wrote: > --------------------------------- > Yeah, I've been looking forward to this one ever since I heard about it. I heard the F-bombs are a-droppin' like in every other sentence, and that even though it seems like a dystopic Santa movie, I guess there's a bit of a character change at the end (something about the real spirit of Christmas), but it's not your normal copout. I'm also glad they're not milking the fact that it's got John Ritter in it. > --------------------------------- I saw it at a free screening a couple weeks ago. There really is a lot of cussing, and most of it's funny. Though I didn't laugh as much as most of the others in the audience, the references to "Santa's wife's sister" cracked me up. And yes, you do feel for the snotty nosed rug rat by the end. It's definitely a Hollywood ending, though. Oh, for those who've seen it, or after you do see it: next day afterwards I went home, and my mom had bought me a chocolate Advent calendar. Considering she didn't see the movie and we don't celebrate Advent, what're the odds??? :)
ColonelKong	post #10  on November 26, 2003 - 8:08 PM PST   I just got back from seeing Bad Santa, and I think it's going to be the most hilariously bitter, misanthropic, and just gleefully wrong Christmas-themed movie ever made until Takashi Miike makes a holiday film of some kind, and one of the first comedies released by a major studio to make me bust a gut in a long time. Just like I'm sure that True Romance's Clarence Worley would love Kill Bill, I'm sure Ghost World's Enid (and perhaps also Crumb's Robert Crumb :) ) would dig Bad Santa. I'm not surprised at all that Disney is taking heat for releasing it through one of it's subsidiaries, but I didn't really think that it was really anti-Santa or anti-Christmas at all. (It probably doesn't really even have much to do with Santa or Christmas at all when you get down to it.) Still, if you have kids in tow or you are easily offended....see something else. (I saw a family with kids who came in about 5 minutes late and stayed for a surprisingly long time [maybe 30-40 minutes] before leaving) I thought all the performances were great all around, I liked the selection of music (I got a chuckle out of the Eyes Wide Shut [another Christmas-themed movie with little to do with Christmas, I suppose Brazil would belong on that list too] theme being used in one scene), and I thought it was nicely shot by Jamie Anderson (Piranha, Small Soldiers, Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back). I almost forgot that this was only Terry Zwigoff's second fiction film, I'm definitely looking forward to whatever he does next. Even though the Coen brothers probably didn't have too much hands-on involvement in this film (I think they did contribute to an early draft of the script), it has a somewhat similar sensibility (I really wish the Coens had a film out this year more like this one than the rather tepid Intolerable Cruelty). One element of Bad Santa I wasn't really crazy about was the ending (which I won't discuss to keep this post spoiler-free), but I loved most of what came before. If you happen to like dark and misanthropic comedies, you could do a lot worse than to go catch Bad Santa. (Oh yeah, I also got to see the Hellboy trailer again on the big screen, which was a nice bonus).
msilenus	post #11  on November 27, 2003 - 10:26 AM PST   Sorry Hamano but even though EW used to have decent movie reviews their output of criticisms in recent years hasnt really been all that good. I go by word of mouth of normal moviegoers over critics most of the time though. Id like to see Bad Santa cause its Terry Zwigoff and I have faith in the material he directs because of his previous output. Has anyone else seen it here? Im sure we would like to get some other views of it.:) -MS
AFleming	post #12  on December 22, 2003 - 7:20 AM PST   I saw Bad Santa a few weeks ago. I was pretty good. It took a long time to get started plotwise, mostly concentrating on the "funny" factor of the drunk, irreverant dept store Santa. It WAS funny, but I think they really milked it. I was starting to get really bored when, about halfway through, the plot picks up. The ending was quite Hollywood. If you are romantic about Christmas or children, don't see it. It can be pretty harsh. As a long time Scrouge, even I got a little annoyed after a while at Billy Bob Thorton's character's constant screaming at the pitiful little kid. After like the 10th time, it sort of loses its humor and leaves you thinking, "isn't this beating a dead horse?" I think you will enjoy this film if you go to see it without expecting it to be the greatest film you've ever seen.
oldkingcole	post #13  on January 7, 2004 - 4:54 AM PST   Saw it. Liked it. It's just so out-and-out wrong that it easily acheives that nervous tension upon which much great humor rests. Zwigoff is now added to my short-list of new-ish directors to keep an eye on. He's good, and he's got a definite point of view. I'm looking forward to whatever he decides to direct next.
Sisyphus	post #14  on January 8, 2004 - 10:49 AM PST   I have a slightly more positive outlook on the ending than most of the posts I read here. Sure it's a Hollywood happy ending, but it climaxes with the audience literally getting the finger - almost as if Zwigoff is saying, "Here's your happy ending, but fuck you too!" I was still chuckling about scenes in this film days after seeing it. This is the first Zwigoff film to crack my annual top ten list.