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GreenCine Movie Talk
Independent
Talk about the world of independent film.
42

Star Wreck - In the Pirkinning
Topic by: Cugat
Posted: October 2, 2005 - 4:02 AM PDT
Last Reply: October 7, 2005 - 1:38 PM PDT

page  1  2  3  4  5  6      prev | next
author topic: Star Wreck - In the Pirkinning
pooja
post #21  on October 2, 2005 - 9:50 PM PDT  
> On October 2, 2005 - 9:25 PM PDT Cugat wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> I've tried MPlayer repeatedly, it has stabbed back at me repeatedly. Needs a major attitude adjustment (is that buried in the settings somewhere?).

Actually, I had trouble with the newer versions of MPlayer, which seemed to get buggier with each update... The newest version for Mac is v.2b9r4, but I went back to v.2b7 which was and remains rock solid. The only other problem with Mplayer is that audio level seems to be low. But the FF/REW thing is so nice!

> Did we take a sharp turn off-topic a few miles back? :-)

It's all woozy's fault... If he'd been able to download the film right at the beginning, we would have been talking about big boobies instead of TCP/IP stacks or whatever that is. And we wouldn't have to feel embarrassed for him for that weird OZ story...

Cugat
post #22  on October 2, 2005 - 9:52 PM PDT  
> On October 2, 2005 - 9:36 PM PDT woozy wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> > > Well, I'd say something about spending 7 years on this ... except I've got even less to show for my last seven years.
> >
> > Been a pretty slow near-decade here too. At least my geekage has kept me technically up to date. :-)
> >
> I actually let my geekage keep me *out* of date. After years of building my computers and watching my friends install the absolute earliest of every alpha-version of kitchen-ware with the result of having a big monstrosity of buggy stuff that with constant tweekage and huge amounts of money runs benchmarks blindingly fast but overheats and has bizaar memory leaks when actually used. It took me ten years, but I discovered if you wait ten years you can get astonishing laptops that run just fine out of the box.
>
> Actually, I've always been a *theory* and *idea* geek, over hardware geek, and a librarian and information fanatic over computer and web extensions geek. Give me a MiniSQL and some Perl and an NCSA server...

I have a feeble appreciation of databases. I liken it to getting NASA to design a procedure to make a skateboard move forward. I don't see why most stuff that falls on to databases can't be done with a text file and some homebrew access management code. (not that I'm a big coder, in my mind I pretend that I'm capable though)

I have no appreciation for web extensions. If I want to hear music and see random stuff bite into my CPU and open myself to all sorts of potential vulnerabilities, I'd do it myself instead of accidentally hitting web pages that do it for me. My idea of a web extension is Adblock. :-)

Also I'm still waiting for a cheap laptop that doesn't require windows.

LIFO response queue emptied...
pooja
post #23  on October 2, 2005 - 10:00 PM PDT  
You guys are BOTH geeks! My Mac is like a dishwasher or washing machine... I just click on a torrent link in my browser and my bittorrent client pops open. When the download is finished I drag the file to my player. What's all the fuss?

Probably the geekiest thing I know is where to find the Bollywood torrents... those are uploaded from places like Silicon Valley or Bangalore, presumably by uber-geeks.
Cugat
post #24  on October 2, 2005 - 10:04 PM PDT  
> On October 2, 2005 - 10:00 PM PDT pooja wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> You guys are BOTH geeks! My Mac is like a dishwasher or washing machine... I just click on a torrent link in my browser and my bittorrent client pops open. When the download is finished I drag the file to my player. What's all the fuss?

Woozy has an unstable system because he hasn't upgraded in a decade I think.


Of course, the person with only one mouse button should be the one to talk... :-)
woozy
post #25  on October 2, 2005 - 10:10 PM PDT  
> If your system is freezing over torrents there might be something seriously wrong with the TCP/IP stack on your system.
>
You might be right. The documentation on the bit torrent site is really poorly organized for someone who simply wants to know what bit torrent is.

You refer to "turrents" "seeds" "upload rates" etc as though everyone on earth knows what they are. Explain bit torrent to me in the same way you'd explain walking to a toddler. Do *not* assume the toddler knows what the word "F-E-E-T" means.

Anyhow I did get an error ""star_wreck_in_the_pirkinning_subtitled_xvid.avi" : warning from tracker - Unable to connect to your incoming data port (xx.xxx.xxx.xxx:xxx). This will result in slow downloads. Please check your firewall/router settings".

My computer only freezes when I get too impatient and am spreading my memory too thin. It didn't freeze this time. Although it downloaded nothin'.

Cugat
post #26  on October 2, 2005 - 10:41 PM PDT  
> On October 2, 2005 - 10:10 PM PDT woozy wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> > If your system is freezing over torrents there might be something seriously wrong with the TCP/IP stack on your system.
> >
> You might be right. The documentation on the bit torrent site is really poorly organized for someone who simply wants to know what bit torrent is.

Its basically a bunch of users throwing random parts of the file back and forth between each other.

For the user it starts with the .torrent meta file, which is basically a file list, server address, and a list of strong checksums representing a sequential march of chunks through a concatenated blob of the aforementioned files.

The client picks up the .torrent, calls the torrent "tracker" server, and gets some statistics about how many others are on, what some of their addresses are. Then the client starts bumming around for pieces of the file. Once it gets a whole checksum verified chunk of the files (often about half a meg in size) it can start offering that chunk to other people in the torrent, other people respond in kind with other chunks, and you then take part in a technological pie fight, then your files are done, and you keep throwing pies as a "seed" until you tell it to cut that out.

The tracker is at best a referee and doesn't take part in the pie fight. You are a peer among peers and this is a scatter-gather type file transfer protocol.

> You refer to "turrents" "seeds" "upload rates" etc as though everyone on earth knows what they are. Explain bit torrent to me in the same way you'd explain walking to a toddler. Do *not* assume the toddler knows what the word "F-E-E-T" means.

You have admitted to setting up web servers, I will assume you know what an upload speed is.

> Anyhow I did get an error ""star_wreck_in_the_pirkinning_subtitled_xvid.avi" : warning from tracker - Unable to connect to your incoming data port (xx.xxx.xxx.xxx:xxx). This will result in slow downloads. Please check your firewall/router settings".

So either you have a firewall blocking incoming connections to port 6881, or you're behind a router that isn't forwarding that port to your system. If you can't control any of that just push up the number of simultaneous uploads, which will bypass those restrictions for anyone you're uploading to.

Seeds are people who have completed downloading a torrent but are still online uploading. For reference, you will not benefit from them if you can't recieve connections from them due to limitations placed on you by your firewall or router settings.

> My computer only freezes when I get too impatient and am spreading my memory too thin. It didn't freeze this time. Although it downloaded nothin'.

Virtual memory mishandling? Perhaps theres some sorta interrupt stompery that happens with your harddrive controller under tense circumstances like low memory provides.

You should probably make an effort to determine if the underlying hardware is at fault, or if its mismanagement by the OS. I'd try pushing the system hard under a DVD knoppix instance, see if it tips over (if not, then your OS is a decent blame candidate, you can start going through your windows hardware drivers). It should also provide decent error messages to help troubleshoot, if you can find the error messages and if they aren't obliterated by a system instability. Oh, and knoppix tends to have memtest86 as a boot option (if you have your system idling overnight, let it run memtest86 passes instead for once, bad or poorly seated memory really bites).
woozy
post #27  on October 2, 2005 - 10:44 PM PDT  
> On October 2, 2005 - 9:50 PM PDT pooja wrote:
>> It's all woozy's fault... If he'd been able to download the film right at the beginning, we would have been talking about big boobies instead of TCP/IP stacks or whatever that is. And we wouldn't have to feel embarrassed for him for that weird OZ story...
>
This really isn't that good a movie to be discussing big boobies over

> I have a feeble appreciation of databases. I liken it to getting NASA to design a procedure to make a skateboard move forward. I don't see why most stuff that falls on to databases can't be done with a text file and some homebrew access management code. (not that I'm a big coder, in my mind I pretend that I'm capable though)
>
I wrote an entire publishers catalog in perl and text files and no data base. databases *can* be like hiring nasa to design a skateboard procedure but text files are like designing a skateboard, a bicycle, a car, and never ever being able to take what you need from one to another.

To sort 1000 books by author, by title, by date of publication, by adress of the author, etc. well, lets say I'm proud of my self for being able to do it but embarrassed I went so long before I decided to hook it to MiniSQL.

> Also I'm still waiting for a cheap laptop that doesn't require windows.
>
Well, see... I spent so long hating windows and trying to circumvent it, it never occured to me to work with it.

> ---------------------------------
> You guys are BOTH geeks! My Mac is like a dishwasher or washing machine... I just click on a torrent link in my browser and my bittorrent client pops open. When the download is finished I drag the file to my player. What's all the fuss?
>
The fuss is I clicked on a torrent link. It stopped in the middle of the download with an incomprehensible message about a firewall and needed my response. with my response it took two hours. I opened it in my player and there was no picture. I tried to download it again and there was a message that said I already was downloading it. I try to figure out why by exploring the the bittorent window and reopening the file I just downloaded in the window that said I was currently downloading it. And nothing happens and I can't close bittorrent nor could I force close the application. I wanted it to work like a dishwasher but I hit the wash button and the water started spilling on the floor and cugat started talking about wierd words like "pie-ps" and "plum-ming" and "gas-gets" and I didn't know what was going on.

Also, when I tried to put a CD in the dishwasher to play music... well, I couldn't get it to play. It just mad a bunch of whirring noise (it didn't matter what CD I put in-- the whirring was the same).

> Woozy has an unstable system because he hasn't upgraded in a decade I think.
>

Haven't upgraded "what" in a decade. Bittorrent. This is the first time I successfully installed it.
>
> Of course, the person with only one mouse button should be the one to talk... :-)
> ---------------------------------

Now, I'm no fan of windows or PC clones and boy do they screw up! But there's *got* to be something wrong with the mentality of persistenly insisting on a single button mouse simply because their rival has a multi-button mouse.

Actually, I think I'm getting the hang of bit torrent. It's just that from my end, all I'm interested in is the final file on my disk. I don't care about the in between step so when I get an application that deals with "TORRENTS" and messages about whether I want to seed my torrents while all I'm thinking about is the file and whether its downloading or not, I get thrown through a loop.



woozy
post #28  on October 2, 2005 - 11:11 PM PDT  

> For the user it starts with the .torrent meta file, which is basically a file list, server address, and a list of strong checksums representing a sequential march of chunks through a concatenated blob of the aforementioned files.
>
See. Take pooja. She doesn't care. She clicks on a link. She wants a file.

Actually, I usually have a fit when I'm helping my friends with computers and they refuse to think they should know anything about directories or file names are email servers.

So far me, my problem is "Hmm, I clicked and I had a problem. What went wrong. Well, I can't know what went wrong if I don't know what was supposed to happen." Step on pedal-- car go forward. If it doesn't work I need to know that the pedal supplies fuel that is burnt and propels the car.

So I get that this is a file that exists on a server. What I don't get is why I can't just download it. Okay, I get that one server with several clients means slow download and I know that bit torrent somehow spreads the chore among the clients but I don't get how bit torrent gets this or how to communicate or talk about this.


> The client picks up the .torrent, calls the torrent "tracker" server, and gets some statistics about how many others are on, what some of their addresses are.

Okay, I'm not getting this. Is the tracker server the server where the file is? Or is there no file and I need to hope there are enough clients online right now to let me get the file.

> Then the client starts bumming around for pieces of the file.

Oh, the latter than.

> Once it gets a whole checksum verified chunk of the files (often about half a meg in size) it can start offering that chunk to other people in the torrent, other people respond in kind with other chunks, and you then take part in a technological pie fight, then your files are done, and you keep throwing pies as a "seed" until you tell it to cut that out.
>
Hmm, seems to me that unless you have an incrediablly popular file this will *always* be slower than the traditional server client model.

> > You refer to "turrents" "seeds" "upload rates" etc as though everyone on earth knows what they are. Explain bit torrent to me in the same way you'd explain walking to a toddler. Do *not* assume the toddler knows what the word "F-E-E-T" means.
>
> You have admitted to setting up web servers, I will assume you know what an upload speed is.
>
Yes, but it isn't nescessarily clear what it means in this context. I get it now. I'm downloading only because someone else is uploading.

> So either you have a firewall blocking incoming connections to port 6881, or you're behind a router that isn't forwarding that port to your system.

Yes, that *was* considered a security feature.

> ...just push up the number of simultaneous uploads, ...

*behhhhhp* assumed understanding of bit torrent! How do I do that.
>
> Seeds are people who have completed downloading a torrent but are still online uploading. For reference, you will not benefit from them if you can't recieve connections from them due to limitations placed on you by your firewall or router settings.
>
Okay, but as a selfish gene I want to download without giving anything in return. So when I'm told it's in my best interest to cooperate I think "Okay" but now I need to think about a whole bunch of new stuff. Do I *want* people using my connection. What about when I turn my machine off. How do I deal with firewall. Gee, I want this file but now I have to evaluate whether there are enough seeders to make it practical.

My point being, it's not self-evident.


> Virtual memory mishandling? Perhaps theres some sorta interrupt stompery that happens with your harddrive controller under tense circumstances like low memory provides.
>

Basically. It's not usually a big deal. Tonight was the worse I've seen it. Seeing as I had no framework to evaluate how bit torrent *normally* is, it was hard for me to determine anything more specific than "gee, that sucked!"
Cugat
post #29  on October 2, 2005 - 11:12 PM PDT  
> On October 2, 2005 - 10:44 PM PDT woozy wrote:
> To sort 1000 books by author, by title, by date of publication, by adress of the author, etc. well, lets say I'm proud of my self for being able to do it but embarrassed I went so long before I decided to hook it to MiniSQL.

That particular application makes sense.

> > Also I'm still waiting for a cheap laptop that doesn't require windows.
> >
> Well, see... I spent so long hating windows and trying to circumvent it, it never occured to me to work with it.

It occurred to me, but Windows is like the jealous possesive girlfriend I never had, it gets real nasty when I want to do something its not in my face offering, and it will not cooperate with me when I try to do really simple things like set up a PPP access point over the serial port and route the internet to/from it.

Also theres just no way to get rid of IE and several other apps that I have no intention of ever using. And then it need security updates, and along with those update come wads of new features, half of which you know are prone to infection of some kind or another.

I tried for a few years, it was unreasonable. If a computer is wasting resources on stuff I don't want it to, and in a few cases actively working against me, it needs an attitude adjustment. So I clubbed the effer over the head with Linux, and now I can close that bloody netbios port without worrying that the system won't ever boot again.

I'm only taking so much abuse from anything, and less so if I pay hundreds of bucks for it.

> > You guys are BOTH geeks! My Mac is like a dishwasher or washing machine... I just click on a torrent link in my browser and my bittorrent client pops open. When the download is finished I drag the file to my player. What's all the fuss?
>
> The fuss is I clicked on a torrent link. It stopped in the middle of the download with an incomprehensible message about a firewall and needed my response. with my response it took two hours. I opened it in my player and there was no picture. I tried to download it again and there was a message that said I already was downloading it. I try to figure out why by exploring the the bittorent window and reopening the file I just downloaded in the window that said I was currently downloading it. And nothing happens and I can't close bittorrent nor could I force close the application.

This was Bittornado? I recall it was pretty civil to me, and NEVER outright stopped to wait for input about not recieving connections (though it might be forced to a standstill because of that fact, its nothing the client can do anything about outside of notifying the user).

> I wanted it to work like a dishwasher but I hit the wash button and the water started spilling on the floor and cugat started talking about wierd words like "pie-ps" and "plum-ming" and "gas-gets" and I didn't know what was going on.

Yeah, the cronoton flux in the plasma conduits was causing a reverse phase loop in the proton field of the transducer coils.

> > Woozy has an unstable system because he hasn't upgraded in a decade I think.
>
> Haven't upgraded "what" in a decade. Bittorrent. This is the first time I successfully installed it.

Computer in general I was hopefully misguessing.

> > Of course, the person with only one mouse button should be the one to talk... :-)
>
> Now, I'm no fan of windows or PC clones and boy do they screw up! But there's *got* to be something wrong with the mentality of persistenly insisting on a single button mouse simply because their rival has a multi-button mouse.

It limits input, which limits the interface.
Great for grandmothers, I loathe it.

> Actually, I think I'm getting the hang of bit torrent. It's just that from my end, all I'm interested in is the final file on my disk. I don't care about the in between step so when I get an application that deals with "TORRENTS" and messages about whether I want to seed my torrents while all I'm thinking about is the file and whether its downloading or not, I get thrown through a loop.

Seeding is automatic, at most it might ask that you stay a bit longer to give back to the group some of what you took, override and move on.

If you are uning Bittornado you'll see a download and upload speed indicator, if they're non-zero then stuff is happening, if progress is 100% you're done and the button at the bottom changes from stop to finish or somesuch. Plenty of indicators. Slightly like flying a plane, you should pick up how to tell you're in the air soon enough.
woozy
post #30  on October 2, 2005 - 11:13 PM PDT  
Oh, that embarrassing OZ story was just that I was (and still am.... sort of) a big OZ fan (hence my name "woozy") but it wasn't something I wanted to share with other classmates.
woozy
post #31  on October 2, 2005 - 11:38 PM PDT  
> On October 2, 2005 - 11:12 PM PDT Cugat wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> > On October 2, 2005 - 10:44 PM PDT woozy wrote:
> > To sort 1000 books by author, by title, by date of publication, by adress of the author, etc. well, lets say I'm proud of my self for being able to do it but embarrassed I went so long before I decided to hook it to MiniSQL.
>
> That particular application makes sense.


Well, actually there is a more philosophical issue underlying it. When it comes to tools do you want a million tools for every possible situation or do you want a single tool with adjustable settings for the one situation (it's broken). I'm a one tool kind of guy.
>
> It occurred to me, but Windows is like the jealous possesive girlfriend I never had, it gets real nasty when I want to do something its not in my face offering, and it will not cooperate with me when I try to do really simple things like set up a PPP access point over the serial port and route the internet to/from it.
>
call that simple? You *are* a geek! No, I hear you. Nice thing about Unix is, if you can type it, you can do it. (Dangerous though!) But after so many times of installing hardware only to disrupt my sound card settings (!!again!!) it was really rather liberating to ... just stop caring... buy the damned laptop and let it run explorer and windows media or whatever it wants to do... at least it actually plays DVDs....

> Also theres just no way to get rid of IE and several other apps that I have no intention of ever using. And then it need security updates, and along with those update come wads of new features, half of which you know are prone to infection of some kind or another.
>
Yeah, I hear you.

Actually, I hate those updates. I ran one a few weeks ago because I thought I had to to run ASP.NET. (Cause ASP.NET needs the Microsoft IIS and they decided XP shouldn't be allowed to run a web server and I thought I needed a patch and ..) and it changed my settings (and knocked out my scanner configuration and ... can *I* start ranting about windows now?

> I'm only taking so much abuse from anything, and less so if I pay hundreds of bucks for it.
>

Linux is probably a lot easier now. But it *is* an effort to do the first hurdle and ...

I need motivation.

> This was Bittornado?

No, the basic bit torrent client. It wasn't the client. It was the file and my firewall and bad timing but not really "getting" what bit torrent did all I could figure was that the "whole thing" didn't work.

> Computer in general I was hopefully misguessing.
>
I have a Toshiba A series sattelite. I really like it. It'a a few years old. Has a few virtual memories issues but mostly only with explorer and microsoft works. Blame microsoft. For a system I was too lazy too tweak and force to my rules, I'm pretty impressed with it.

> It limits input, which limits the interface.
> Great for grandmothers, I loathe it.
>
Probably one of Macs worst stubborn mistakes.


> If you are uning Bittornado you'll see a download and upload speed indicator, if they're non-zero then stuff is happening, if progress is 100% you're done and the button at the bottom changes from stop to finish or somesuch. Plenty of indicators. Slightly like flying a plane, you should pick up how to tell you're in the air soon enough.
> ---------------------------------

I'll get the hang of it.

Cugat
post #32  on October 2, 2005 - 11:46 PM PDT  
> On October 2, 2005 - 11:11 PM PDT woozy wrote:
> > For the user it starts with the .torrent meta file, which is basically a file list, server address, and a list of strong checksums representing a sequential march of chunks through a concatenated blob of the aforementioned files.
> >
> See. Take pooja. She doesn't care. She clicks on a link. She wants a file.

Yeah, should work the same for you, you click the link, the browser feeds the .torrent to the application which starts up and gets it done.

I didn't tell you to use Azureus because I aimed you for the click and be done method.

> Actually, I usually have a fit when I'm helping my friends with computers and they refuse to think they should know anything about directories or file names are email servers.

Yeah, forever in the dark ages they will be.

> So far me, my problem is "Hmm, I clicked and I had a problem. What went wrong. Well, I can't know what went wrong if I don't know what was supposed to happen." Step on pedal-- car go forward. If it doesn't work I need to know that the pedal supplies fuel that is burnt and propels the car.

This is why you have error messages, like the one you got about having a firewall/router problem. Ideally you set up your own network and you can just do a Stanley Spadowsky "duhhhhh" (rolls head around) and then flip the switches to make it work.

> So I get that this is a file that exists on a server. What I don't get is why I can't just download it. Okay, I get that one server with several clients means slow download and I know that bit torrent somehow spreads the chore among the clients but I don't get how bit torrent gets this or how to communicate or talk about this.

Actually is exists on the other peers, the server only tells you where to find those peers. That is why you can't just download it. It means in the case of a psychotic number of clients, the average upload speed is the average download speed, which with thousands of downloaders may be much faster than one central server serving the file (in which case, there are other common protocols that do the same thing), and it scales decently.

> > The client picks up the .torrent, calls the torrent "tracker" server, and gets some statistics about how many others are on, what some of their addresses are.
>
> Okay, I'm not getting this. Is the tracker server the server where the file is? Or is there no file and I need to hope there are enough clients online right now to let me get the file.

The tracker server ONLY tracks the users which pass teh files between each other. If theres one seed, or enough peers that happen to have all the parts you can get the file. In the case of Star Wreck the torrent will not die for at least a week, I've seen torrents last for months.

> > Then the client starts bumming around for pieces of the file.
>
> Oh, the latter than.
>
> > Once it gets a whole checksum verified chunk of the files (often about half a meg in size) it can start offering that chunk to other people in the torrent, other people respond in kind with other chunks, and you then take part in a technological pie fight, then your files are done, and you keep throwing pies as a "seed" until you tell it to cut that out.
> >
> Hmm, seems to me that unless you have an incrediablly popular file this will *always* be slower than the traditional server client model.

For distributing a no-budget movie its a huge win, and since I was downloading at my top speed I have no complaint. (thousands of seeders, some of them being charitable users on fat pipes, fans take care of themselves when they can)

> > You have admitted to setting up web servers, I will assume you know what an upload speed is.
> >
> Yes, but it isn't nescessarily clear what it means in this context. I get it now. I'm downloading only because someone else is uploading.
>
> > So either you have a firewall blocking incoming connections to port 6881, or you're behind a router that isn't forwarding that port to your system.
>
> Yes, that *was* considered a security feature.

I don't think windows has any gaping services waiting to be exploited at 6881-6889. That is considered a nuisance unless windows is more fragile than I could previously comprehend.

> > ...just push up the number of simultaneous uploads, ...
>
> *behhhhhp* assumed understanding of bit torrent! How do I do that.

If you're using bittornado, near the upload speed limit setting is a number of uploads limit setting.

> > Seeds are people who have completed downloading a torrent but are still online uploading. For reference, you will not benefit from them if you can't recieve connections from them due to limitations placed on you by your firewall or router settings.
> >
> Okay, but as a selfish gene I want to download without giving anything in return. So when I'm told it's in my best interest to cooperate I think "Okay" but now I need to think about a whole bunch of new stuff. Do I *want* people using my connection. What about when I turn my machine off. How do I deal with firewall. Gee, I want this file but now I have to evaluate whether there are enough seeders to make it practical.

Well, if everyone were like you, torrents wouldn't work, fortunately most clients make it a hassle to be a total scrooge, and the protocol itsself encourages uploading among peers vith a sort of tit-for-tat algorithum. Unless the torrent is bursting with seeds you're going to suffer for excessively holding back.

The use of your connection isn't willy nilly whatever another client asks, it only transfers the files its working on, the design of it makes unfortunate sharing accidents pretty unlikely (really). You can throttle your upload to an extent with the GUI upload speed option, and possibly further if you want to go through the command line or even edit the client (written in python generally).

If you turn your machine off the partial file remains, bittorrent is pretty solid about being able to resume.

Deal with the firewall by forwarding or opening 6881 (and a few incrementally higher ports if you plan to do multiple downloads and you're not using azureus or something), it only matters if an app is listening there, and only bittorent tentds to do that there. If you worry its a problem just don't run the client.

You don't need to evaluate that hard, if theres one seeder then the torrent is generally working. If there is none then thele is question, but the protocol tries te scatter bits of the file evenly enough that it can survive it with enough peers.

> My point being, it's not self-evident.

VCRs baffle millions daily.

"Hello, computer?" -- Scotty

> > Virtual memory mishandling? Perhaps theres some sorta interrupt stompery that happens with your harddrive controller under tense circumstances like low memory provides.
>
> Basically. It's not usually a big deal. Tonight was the worse I've seen it. Seeing as I had no framework to evaluate how bit torrent *normally* is, it was hard for me to determine anything more specific than "gee, that sucked!"

Well, its a very much alive torrent with thousands of seeders, some with very big pipes. Give it its incoming port click the file you want, when it completes drag the file to your player. Pooja has the right idea here, it does Just Work(tm). You really don't need to be a network engineer to use it, unless you act all network engineery and start cutting yourself off the net.
woozy
post #33  on October 3, 2005 - 12:02 AM PDT  
Actually despite my bitching. I'm having a better time with bit torrent right now. It was just that one experience at the very beginning went *very* badly. Everything else has been going better (except I don't know where to find big pipe torrents-- I'm downloading Lost episode 2 [probably not legal *sigh* but my tv has been broken for two weeks so ...] and it's uploading at only 2kb per second... sigh]). I'll have to do something about that port business.
Cugat
post #34  on October 3, 2005 - 12:05 AM PDT  
On October 2, 2005 - 11:38 PM PDT woozy wrote:
> On October 2, 2005 - 11:12 PM PDT Cugat wrote:
> > On October 2, 2005 - 10:44 PM PDT woozy wrote:
> > > To sort 1000 books by author, by title, by date of publication, by adress of the author, etc. well, lets say I'm proud of my self for being able to do it but embarrassed I went so long before I decided to hook it to MiniSQL.
> >
> > That particular application makes sense.
>
> Well, actually there is a more philosophical issue underlying it. When it comes to tools do you want a million tools for every possible situation or do you want a single tool with adjustable settings for the one situation (it's broken). I'm a one tool kind of guy.

The monolithic approach.

> > It occurred to me, but Windows is like the jealous possesive girlfriend I never had, it gets real nasty when I want to do something its not in my face offering, and it will not cooperate with me when I try to do really simple things like set up a PPP access point over the serial port and route the internet to/from it.
>
> call that simple? You *are* a geek! No, I hear you. Nice thing about Unix is, if you can type it, you can do it. (Dangerous though!)

It was actually like, I think a whole one command in Linux. I wanted to share my DSL with my Amiga. Spent years trying to get windows do that.

> But after so many times of installing hardware only to disrupt my sound card settings (!!again!!)

Umm, save the settings before overwriting them then.

> it was really rather liberating to ... just stop caring... buy the damned laptop and let it run explorer and windows media or whatever it wants to do... at least it actually plays DVDs....

I can play DVDs too, the MPAA hates that I can play discs I bought from them, but if they want to pull that crap, they'd better outright say that when I plonk down those dollars that I'm NOT actually buying the movie or the rights to watch it.

> > Also theres just no way to get rid of IE and several other apps that I have no intention of ever using. And then it need security updates, and along with those update come wads of new features, half of which you know are prone to infection of some kind or another.
>
> Yeah, I hear you.
>
> Actually, I hate those updates. I ran one a few weeks ago because I thought I had to to run ASP.NET. (Cause ASP.NET needs the Microsoft IIS and they decided XP shouldn't be allowed to run a web server and I thought I needed a patch and ..) and it changed my settings (and knocked out my scanner configuration and ... can *I* start ranting about windows now?

Maybe, you actually are in a better position to. I just get tired of having to remotely diagnose problems on a known bad OS that I've already abandoned years ago with information like "some dumb requester popped up".

> > I'm only taking so much abuse from anything, and less so if I pay hundreds of bucks for it.
>
> Linux is probably a lot easier now. But it *is* an effort to do the first hurdle and ...
>
> I need motivation.

Curiosity. Pick something near the top ending in EN. Then burn it and boot off of it. Don't try to destroy your system and you'll be good.

> > This was Bittornado?
>
> No, the basic bit torrent client. It wasn't the client. It was the file and my firewall and bad timing but not really "getting" what bit torrent did all I could figure was that the "whole thing" didn't work.

Bah, how many times have I said bittornado now?

Last I saw the original client was nagware. And its obviously a bit more opaque than you'd like.

> > It limits input, which limits the interface.
> > Great for grandmothers, I loathe it.
>
> Probably one of Macs worst stubborn mistakes.

Probably. People really like their dishwashers though.

> it's uploading at only 2kb per second... sigh]). I'll have to do something about that port business.

Upload isn't port limited, just download. Cute that way innit?
woozy
post #35  on October 3, 2005 - 12:23 AM PDT  
> Bah, how many times have I said bittornado now?
>
All right. After lost episode two downloads and Season 5 six feet under ep 1, and after work tommorrow I'll download bittornado and see if I like it better.

> Last I saw the original client was nagware.

Yeah, it is.

woozy
post #36  on October 3, 2005 - 12:34 AM PDT  
Actually to be polite, how long should I leave something to seed?

Cugat
post #37  on October 3, 2005 - 12:49 AM PDT  
> On October 3, 2005 - 12:34 AM PDT woozy wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> Actually to be polite, how long should I leave something to seed?

Seed to a sharing ratio of 1 if you want to be really polite. (or higher if you really want to support something, I went to 3 on Star Wreck, passing on what I downloaded and giving out two more) Some people say a few hours after it finishes though.

If you're pushing stuff available or nearly available from your friendly DVD through mail service, try not to go out of your way. I'm offended really, I think I'll seed some uncontestable goodness for a while now...
pooja
post #38  on October 3, 2005 - 6:28 AM PDT  
Good morning, geeks! Wow, I can't beleive I just read through all of that to see if you were still paranoid about me...

woozy:
You need to get a dishwasher with one button that says "PLAY" if you want to listen to CDs. Otherwise you'll just get clean CDs.

cugat:
Sometimes you write like Yoda. Jedi Knight are you? Anyways, my one concession to Redmond was investing in a trackball with 4 programmable buttons AND a scroll wheel. It can't do button chording like my old Kensington trackball, but it's pretty handy and I don't need a big area on my desk for dragging a mouse around. My teacup is safe from accidental nudges. However, Apple just came out with a mouse called (officially!) The Mighty Mouse which you can customize with up to 4 buttons, and has a scroll ball instead of a scroll wheel. Now if only I could flip it and use it as a trackball...

My mac's OS is a flavor of Unix... woozy, if you don't want to share, I think you can use IRC to do direct downloads through software robots. However, my housemate says that these days bittorrent is just as fast for a lot of files. With direct downloads the 'bot puts you in a line with everyone else who wants the file, and you have to wait your turn.

My housemate showed me a bittorrent client once that had a pretty graphic representation of your download in progress. It shows you in the middle, and all the other guys you're sharing the file with are placed in a circle around you, with the seeds in solid colors. They you see these "spokes" appear between you and the others, with little "boxes" crawling in to or out from you... these are the packets of data you're sharing. This helped me understand that there's something karmic about sharing on bittorrent. However, if you have adsl, I don't think people should expect you to upload as much as you download. Our upload pipeline isn't that big, and if we overload it it mucks up a lot of other things like e-mail and web browsing. So I'm mostly a parasite, but that's why they call us leeches, right? I think I'm off the hook if I give as much as I can.

Most internet torrent sites show you how many seeds vs. leeches there are. What I do is if a popular file has a LOT of seeders (a popular show like LOST has thousands on the next day) I just end my session when I have the complete file. If it's a fairly old or unpopular torrent with maybe some "cult" value or something, and there are only a couple of seeders, I try to seed my file as long as possible after I've completed the download. When my upload for that file goes right to or close to 0kb/s I stop. Our connection to the internet is always up because someone in our house is always (usually) online.

Oh, writing all this has overloaded my geek circuits! Danger, danger, Will Robinson!
Cugat
post #39  on October 3, 2005 - 10:22 AM PDT  
> On October 3, 2005 - 6:28 AM PDT pooja wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> Good morning, geeks! Wow, I can't beleive I just read through all of that to see if you were still paranoid about me...
>
> woozy:
> You need to get a dishwasher with one button that says "PLAY" if you want to listen to CDs. Otherwise you'll just get clean CDs.
>
> cugat:
> Sometimes you write like Yoda. Jedi Knight are you?

I actually haven't subscribed to the prequels. I've heard much booing, and Lucas really doesn't need the money.

> Anyways, my one concession to Redmond was investing in a trackball with 4 programmable buttons AND a scroll wheel. It can't do button chording like my old Kensington trackball, but it's pretty handy and I don't need a big area on my desk for dragging a mouse around.

If its not a Microsoft trackball, you can say its a concession to versatile computing instead. :-)

Note I have my mouse confined to about 4.5 inches of my table.

> if you have adsl, I don't think people should expect you to upload as much as you download. Our upload pipeline isn't that big, and if we overload it it mucks up a lot of other things like e-mail and web browsing. So I'm mostly a parasite, but that's why they call us leeches, right? I think I'm off the hook if I give as much as I can.

Most net users, even the modern dialup user, have significantly less upload speed than download speed.

Torrent deals with that pretty well, if things aren't great, it takes a while to download, which gives you plenty of time to upload. Not an artificial limit.
woozy
post #40  on October 3, 2005 - 10:26 AM PDT  
> On October 3, 2005 - 6:28 AM PDT pooja wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> Good morning, geeks! Wow, I can't beleive I just read through all of that to see if you were still paranoid about me...
>
Hmmm, that sounds paranoid of you. ;)

Okay, I'll oblige. Let's talk about boobies. "Lola", eh? I'm not familiar with that mag. Busy layout I must say. I go for the artsy single type-- young willowy nude woman at the window with a faraway look and that sort of pretentious voyeurism. But I guess it wouldn't have been funny if it were tasteful pornography.


> woozy:
> You need to get a dishwasher with one button that says "PLAY" if you want to listen to CDs. Otherwise you'll just get clean CDs.
>

My point being that either a dishwasher needs to be a one button "just clean the dishes" that never goes wrong and only does one thing and only gives "dishes done/dishes done" output, but if the dishwasher allows one to control things such as water pressure or temp and gives output pertaining ot water pressure or temp, the manufacturers should make an effort to research whether the average user understands roughly how a dishwasher works (hot water goes in, rushes around the dishes cleaning the dishes, is pumped out, unit is heated to dry dishes) and to provide adequate documentation.

Now, I admit I get pissed when folks want me to help them with their computers when they make know effort to understand the basics, so I feel my bitching "huh, what the heck is a 'torrent'?" seems hypocritical. *EXCEPT* that when I have a problem (which I only had one at the beginning) or I don't understand the menu or application I feel I *need* to know what the heck a 'torrent' to understand the menu or application.

>
> My mac's OS is a flavor of Unix... woozy, if you don't want to share, I think you can use IRC to do direct downloads through software robots.

I didn't say I didn't want to share. I just said I wanted to know what was going on. And if I get an error message from bittorrent saying "You can't download because you are behind a firewall" I want to know ... well, wouldn't that give *you* some pause?

> However, my housemate says that these days bittorrent is just as fast for a lot of files. With direct downloads the 'bot puts you in a line with everyone else who wants the file, and you have to wait your turn.

It didn't occur to me bit torrent would be *slower*. Actually, I guess if the whole point is scattered file sharing and not big ol' servers with "expensive" storage and bandwidth issue than bit torrent makes a lot of sense. I just never really thought much about it as I don't swap a bunch of media or huge files so the issues never arose.

So I'm mostly a parasite, but that's why they call us leeches, right? I think I'm off the hook if I give as much as I can.
>
Well, if no-one wants to take, it's not my fault.

Um, let's talk copyright infringement (to be blunt) for a second shall we? For personal reasons, (not moral or legal; personal) I've been trying to kick the habit and lead a clean life lately but ... oh, well. Now, off the bat, let me point out that I'd never have a problem with someone who enjoyed casual drug use but didn't want to deal. I wouldn't call that person a hypocrate. I wouldn't call that person a leech. Likewise, if my tv breaks down for three weeks and I can't watch "Lost", then I don't feel ABC or its advertisers are really losing anything by my downloading the first two episodes and catching up. In fact, if I *didn't* I'd be inclined to give up watching forever so I'm actually coming up with a solution that I'll *keep* watching them. Okay, so it's illegal but I can live with it a bit... but how long am I obliged am I to be a visible seed of this contraband? Is it *really* hypocritical of me to get nervous and deseed immediately.

(Oh, and you do know that woozy is an entirely fictional persona and every thing he says he is or done *is* purely imaginary don't you.)

> Most internet torrent sites show you how many seeds vs. leeches there are. What I do is if a popular file has a LOT of seeders (a popular show like LOST has thousands on the next day)

As an utter new-comer I need to find these torrent sites. The one I seem to have found has files with seeders in the single digits and ... um, maybe, if I'm on the clean side of average on the whole copyright issue, maybe I stumbled onto a torrent site that *isn't* for me.

No-one has used my Star Wreck seed although I've had it for over twelve hours and it's totally legit. I guess I'll take poojas advice. If no one *needs* it...

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