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GreenCine Movie Talk
Independent
Talk about the world of independent film.
42

Star Wreck - In the Pirkinning
Topic by: Cugat
Posted: October 2, 2005 - 4:02 AM PDT
Last Reply: October 7, 2005 - 1:38 PM PDT

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author topic: Star Wreck - In the Pirkinning
Cugat
post #61  on October 3, 2005 - 5:51 PM PDT  
On October 3, 2005 - 5:47 PM PDT woozy wrote:
> > Odd are you would have had people download from you if there wasn't some sort of wrench in the works. When others download from you, they don't really choose who from, the client just gives them a progress bar and it gets done. Odds are they try to connect to recieve, and hit your blocked port, then move on.
>
> Mmm, prolly. Don't know why Lost ep.2 wasn't blocked. Don't really care. Will find out more when I use bittornado.

From what I gather the last time you tried seeding you started completed, so the client never reached out for other clients, making a connection that other clients can ask you with.

Its why you can still browse the web even though you have the firewall up.
woozy
post #62  on October 3, 2005 - 5:51 PM PDT  
By the way, on the orig. bit torrent Six Feet under s5 ep. 2 has been downloading of over 18 hours now. It isn't stalling or stopping. Just plugging away at 2-20 kb/s.

When it's done that'll be the end of my experiences with the original client.

And before you say it, yes, obviously something is wrong, yes, it's probably my port being unavailable, and yes, I expect to get more sensible comments when I load bittornado. Just for now I'm not really wanting to stop an 18 hour long experiment.
pooja
post #63  on October 3, 2005 - 8:22 PM PDT  
> On October 3, 2005 - 5:51 PM PDT woozy wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> When it's done that'll be the end of my experiences with the original client.
>
> Just for now I'm not really wanting to stop an 18 hour long experiment.

Well, too bad I was watching another 4 hour musical extravaganza, because I could've saved you some trouble... most bittorrent clients (at least on the Mac side) are smart enough to analyze and resume a download that was interrupted, even if it was started by another client. I actually do this on purpose sometimes, when I have trouble finding a good seed, or if the tracker is being stingy with peer connections. Switching clients seems to "wake up" the download. Just shut down your client, start up another one, find the .torrent file for the download, and open it. Make sure you're saving the download to the same folder or directory you were using before. You'll get a dialogue... It'll say something like "The file XXX already exists... should I resume?" and "Checking existing file" so just hit go and you're all set.

If the download is hanging, though, you might have a bad file. You should check to see if there are any other versions of the same episode available... often there are 2 or 3 for popular shows. Some sites will have comments by other people who are interested in the file or have downloaded it... it'll say stuff like "this is a really crappy encoding job" or "this one seems to stop at XX mb and just stop... anyone else having the same problem?" so you should check those. Usually, if there are no comments the file is fine.
pooja
post #64  on October 3, 2005 - 8:29 PM PDT  
See, just a cursory check I just did shows 3 different torrents for this episode. Of these:
Six Feet Under 502 hdtv-lol.torrent
Six Feet Under 5x02 (HDTV-LOL)[VTV].torrent
those 2 have no seeds and very few leechers if at all. One of them shows 1 leech, and that might be you, woozy!

However, THIS one:
Six.Feet.Under.S05E02.HDTV.XviD-LOL [EZTV]
shows up with 18 seeds and 8 leechers... that's a much healthier torrent at 26 peers. You should be dling THAT one. Then you'll be a good citizen, too, since you'll be contributing to a healthy torrent rather than a hopeless one that will do no-one any good.
woozy
post #65  on October 3, 2005 - 8:31 PM PDT  
It only hung when my computer went into hibernation during the night. Other than that it simply churned at 18 kb/sec. Which was fine with me as I did have plenty of other stuff to do today.
Cugat
post #66  on October 3, 2005 - 8:54 PM PDT  
On October 3, 2005 - 8:22 PM PDT pooja wrote:
> On October 3, 2005 - 5:51 PM PDT woozy wrote:
> > When it's done that'll be the end of my experiences with the original client.
> >
> > Just for now I'm not really wanting to stop an 18 hour long experiment.
>
...
> most bittorrent clients (at least on the Mac side) are smart enough to analyze and resume a download that was interrupted, even if it was started by another client.

It is roughly in the design of the protocol, if a client won't do that then you have a bad one.

I've actually used this to repair large and slightly broken files across the net before.

> I actually do this on purpose sometimes, when I have trouble finding a good seed, or if the tracker is being stingy with peer connections. Switching clients seems to "wake up" the download.

I found the same, but without having to change clients.
woozy
post #67  on October 3, 2005 - 10:04 PM PDT  
Okay, I'm trying Bit Tornado. It's not in the least bit intuitive but it is working better than my first attempt at bittorent. (When on earth did I download Azareus?) I can see that once I learn what settings do I will be able to adjust them.

Okay, I should download this 42 minute file in about 68 hours at 2 kb/sec.

Hate to say this cugat but nothing about bittornado seems self-explanitory and so far as I can tell it has no help menu or documentation.
Cugat
post #68  on October 3, 2005 - 10:18 PM PDT  
On October 3, 2005 - 10:04 PM PDT woozy wrote:
> Okay, I'm trying Bit Tornado. It's not in the least bit intuitive but it is working better than my first attempt at bittorent. (When on earth did I download Azareus?) I can see that once I learn what settings do I will be able to adjust them.

Azureus is pretty cool, though you may freak at all the knobs.

> Okay, I should download this 42 minute file in about 68 hours at 2 kb/sec.
>
> Hate to say this cugat but nothing about bittornado seems self-explanitory and so far as I can tell it has no help menu or documentation.

Well, that was my stab at a simple usable client. At least you can trivially turn the number of peers you upload up on this one. (which will help mitigate your firewall a little)

I'm still open for questions.
woozy
post #69  on October 3, 2005 - 10:39 PM PDT  
> Azureus is pretty cool, though you may freak at all the knobs.
>
at least the knobs are explained. You don't seem to get that I *like* knobs. I just need to know what they do.

> Well, that was my stab at a simple usable client. At least you can trivially turn the number of peers you upload up on this one. (which will help mitigate your firewall a little)
>
> I'm still open for questions.
> ---------------------------------

Yeah, what hell are you talking about when you say things like push you port or make my part 6381 public.

I'm not behind a firewall, just a DSL router and all three clients say my port 6381 isn't available but none of them tell me which ports (if any) are available. What to do when a port isn't available or why any of my ports are unavailable.

Cugat
post #70  on October 3, 2005 - 10:48 PM PDT  
> On October 3, 2005 - 10:39 PM PDT woozy wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> > Azureus is pretty cool, though you may freak at all the knobs.
>
> at least the knobs are explained. You don't seem to get that I *like* knobs. I just need to know what they do.

But you're constantly seeming to freak out about them.

> > Well, that was my stab at a simple usable client. At least you can trivially turn the number of peers you upload up on this one. (which will help mitigate your firewall a little)
> >
> > I'm still open for questions.
>
> Yeah, what hell are you talking about when you say things like push you port or make my part 6381 public.

Ow, you made my brain hurt. I never ever said anything half that incoherent.

> I'm not behind a firewall, just a DSL router and all three clients say my port 6381 isn't available but none of them tell me which ports (if any) are available. What to do when a port isn't available or why any of my ports are unavailable.

6881 and a little up of that.

The clients tend to try just one port and the fail, its not reasonable to try automatically feeling out your forwarded ports. Whats available is up to your router/firewall/thingthatiskeepingthemfromworking.

If they complain about 6881 not working, go to your router config, have it forward the port to the system you run bittorrent on.
woozy
post #71  on October 3, 2005 - 11:10 PM PDT  

> 6881 and a little up of that.
>
That sentence needs a verb.

> If they complain about 6881 not working, go to your router config, have it forward the port to the system you run bittorrent on.
> ---------------------------------

You keep saying that as though it should be coherent. What the heck does "have it forward the port to the system you run bittorrent on" mean?

Anyhow after having a static IP for over six years I've suddenly discovered that by getting the fucking microsoft system patch it completely distroyed that without any warning. I set it back and supposedly made all ports available so hopefully that should help.

But for god's sake. If this is the thing that is likely to happen don't you think the should tell you what to do when it blithely says port 6381 is unavailable. How many people do you think know that obviously you should "have it forward the port to the system you run bittorrent on" (whatever that means...)

Cugat
post #72  on October 3, 2005 - 11:28 PM PDT  
On October 3, 2005 - 11:10 PM PDT woozy wrote:
> > If they complain about 6881 not working, go to your router config, have it forward the port to the system you run bittorrent on.
>
> You keep saying that as though it should be coherent. What the heck does "have it forward the port to the system you run bittorrent on" mean?

If your router is not directing port connect attempts from the net to your system, you need to tell it to do so for the port(s) in question. This process is somewhat specific to each router and is therefore not really sane for me to walk you through without more information.

> But for god's sake. If this is the thing that is likely to happen don't you think the should tell you what to do when it blithely says port 6381 is unavailable. How many people do you think know that obviously you should "have it forward the port to the system you run bittorrent on" (whatever that means...)

It means that in the case of you having a router either blocking or otherwisne not sending port access attempts from the net to your system, you should rectify the situation for the ports in question.

All the app knows is that its not getting connects from the outside world as expected, it cannot sanely diagnose wether its a software firewall, hardware firewall, or network address translation issue -- and then figure out what brand/model/version/program is responsible and look up a how to on managing your own equipment/software.

The internet protocol on this level is fairly straightforward, either you set something up to screw it up, or you added something between you and the internet to screw it up. I don't know, its basic networking stuffs. Most added things that screw it up have settings to clear the path for a TCP port so you can get incoming connections. Again I don't know what, and your verbosity only extends as far as screaming that you generically don't know. If you specfically don't know something I can fill you in, otherwise I'm not going to write a novel on all the possible permutations.

Theres simply no magic bullet what to do sentence I can throw at you, you need to find whats stopping it up and why, then look for the option to unstop it up for that port.
woozy
post #73  on October 3, 2005 - 11:59 PM PDT  
> The internet protocol on this level is fairly straightforward, either you set something up to screw it up, or you added something between you and the internet to screw it up. I don't know, its basic networking stuffs.

There's no such thing as basic networking stuffs. Most people hope and pray and do an invocation at the time they get an internet connection the first time and hope they never have to deal with it again. Once they do and they hear something like "oh, download yahoo instant messanger" it's awesome" or "oh, download a bit torrent client. it's awesome" they hope the configuration is easy. If there's any "networking stuffs" at all the hope they just have to be connected to the internet at the time. I'm very grateful you helped me through this, but your concept of what is intuitive and obvious and advice to get a better client is a little out of synch of what one may wish to do for what appears to be an easy little downloading program.

As it turns out, I like azureus the best of the clients but for practical purposes they are all the same. Bittornado, did not make fixing my networking problem any easier.
woozy
post #74  on October 4, 2005 - 12:03 AM PDT  
so pooja. When was the first time you ever used bittorrent. Did you ever have a problem or was it just point and click.
Cugat
post #75  on October 4, 2005 - 12:06 AM PDT  
On October 3, 2005 - 11:59 PM PDT woozy wrote:
> > The internet protocol on this level is fairly straightforward, either you set something up to screw it up, or you added something between you and the internet to screw it up. I don't know, its basic networking stuffs.
>
> There's no such thing as basic networking stuffs. Most people hope and pray and do an invocation at the time they get an internet connection the first time and hope they never have to deal with it again.

Yeah, well, I'm a freak then.

> Once they do and they hear something like "oh, download yahoo instant messanger" it's awesome" or "oh, download a bit torrent client. it's awesome" they hope the configuration is easy.

And the app level config should be near trivial, as long as the timid mortal just hits okay most of the time.

> If there's any "networking stuffs" at all the hope they just have to be connected to the internet at the time. I'm very grateful you helped me through this, but your concept of what is intuitive and obvious and advice to get a better client is a little out of synch of what one may wish to do for what appears to be an easy little downloading program.
>
> As it turns out, I like azureus the best of the clients but for practical purposes they are all the same. Bittornado, did not make fixing my networking problem any easier.

The client won't do anything to fix your network. Its not a client level problem. The clients all seem to work to the best of their ability within the situation, your networking is stopped up.
woozy
post #76  on October 4, 2005 - 12:53 AM PDT  
> The client won't do anything to fix your network. Its not a client level problem. The clients all seem to work to the best of their ability within the situation, your networking is stopped up.
> ---------------------------------

Yes, I believe we have pretty well determined that. My point being that it was never an issue of finding a good client.

Cugat
post #77  on October 4, 2005 - 1:06 AM PDT  
On October 4, 2005 - 12:53 AM PDT woozy wrote:
> > The client won't do anything to fix your network. Its not a client level problem. The clients all seem to work to the best of their ability within the situation, your networking is stopped up.
>
> Yes, I believe we have pretty well determined that. My point being that it was never an issue of finding a good client.

You seemed critically baffled about how to use it, and since the original bittorent client has made significant UI changes since I last used it, common ground would make explanations feasable (otherwise I imagine you would never understand what I was saying, nor I what you were seeing. a hopeless situation on top of a bleak one. and stopping the transfer for a dead end question is poor behavior for a client, tornado I at least knew would just work and have a yellow light instead of a green one).
pooja
post #78  on October 4, 2005 - 7:13 AM PDT  
Good morning, O boys who wallow at the opposite ends of geektitude! Much has been written since I went to bed, but I don't know if anyone actually communicated...

woozy, has anyone determined this basic aspect of what you're going through? How are you connecting to the internet?

On a Mac, the computer takes you step by step through an initial set-up process when you start it up for the first time. It asks you questions like "How would you like to connect to the Internet?" and "Would you like to use Earthlink (Apple's partner for that) or do you already have an ISP?"

All Macs have a built-in firewall, which I've left pretty much the way it was set. Do you have a firewall? Where is it? Macs have a Networking Control Panel that you can use to change things like port settings. Do you have such a control panel, and if so, have you ever opened it?

We have DSL which comes into our house over a regular phone line. My housemate stuck a wirelss router on that. Do you have an account with a phone company or some brand-name ISP? Do you use the router they provided you with (if you're not Wifi, you should have connected the router with an ethernet cable or something...) You just click on "Yes" or "No" and enter info like your e-mail address.

All of the above were pretty much a given... a Mac is basically plug'n'play. When I found out about bittorrent, I intuitively understood how it works... you start sending packets out soon after you receive the first few data packets.

I did get some tweaking tips at the beginning, but I think the new/improved clients don't need much tweaking anymore. The current Mac versions of the clients I use are pretty much set to the factory defaults, I think (unless they were smart enough to keep my preferences from an older version).

I think most of the software I've been using to download torrents and watch them are Mac ports of unix software... since OS X is a type of unix with a nice GUI interface, apparently this is not too hard to do. So the programs are pretty stable.

So, in a nutshell, that has been my experience with it. I think that's pretty typical of Mac users. I mean, I can't take an engine apart and put it back together, but that doesn't keep me from having a satisfying driving experience. I know how to make the car go, I know how to turn on the AC, I know how to play a CD. I look at Windows/PC users and I think, "Those boys all want to build their own hot rods, but half of them end up driving junky jalopies with amateur paint jobs."

That said, I also haven't had any problem finding easy to read online tutorials on using bittorrent. I think a lot of them were written by anime geeks for some reason, since they turn up on anime-related sites. I think many of the sites that index torrents have a FAQ or something where they provide information or links to tutorials and such. I read a few of those and they were helpful in the beginning, but now I think the clients have evolved to a point where they are more usable straight out of the box.
pooja
post #79  on October 4, 2005 - 7:24 AM PDT  
THIS is the top link that comes up if you do THIS search on google. I'm always surprised how boys try to get these things working without doing a little bit of good solid reading on the subject first. My father and brothers all had this attitude..."Just throw a wrench at it... it should work..." They'd put something together, THEN they would stop and read the instruction manual when there was a screw or something left over. Is it just laziness or is it bravado?
pooja
post #80  on October 4, 2005 - 7:34 AM PDT  
Oh, THIS Wiki entry is more up-to-date, I think.

And here's a good one if you're using BitTornado.
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