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By popular demand, a forum devoted to Mr. Philo T. Farnsworth's remarkable invention.
93

Lost - SEASON 4
Topic by: troublemaker
Posted: January 31, 2008 - 5:22 PM PST
Last Reply: September 9, 2008 - 4:32 PM PDT

page  1  2  3  4  5  6  7      prev | next
author topic: Lost - SEASON 4
hamano
post #41  on March 6, 2008 - 8:42 AM PST  
He quickly went back to being the "used to date Michelle Pfeiffer guy"....

So who's running this freighter and the "team" put together by that guy who used to run the cops on WIRED? It's not Penny although she was calling all the time. It's probably Penny's dad if he was interested in logs from mysteriously lost ships.

My understanding of how time paradoxes work (in SF) is that every time you travel back you are creating one or more new possible futures. So yes you can go back and do something to change the future, but it only affects YOUR particular timeline. The problem with this is that from a story viewpoint it's an "anything goes" copout. The whole literary device of "destiny/fate" goes out the window because now anything is possible. For every Charlie that drowned there's a timeline where Charlie closed the hatch to the communication room from OUTSIDE where Desmond was. Sure this allows you to communicate with past and future versions of yourself but the danger is it could all become meaningless. You tell Desmond to go to a past version of yourself to send a message. Now there's a "new" entry in your notebook that Desmond is YOUR constant because you changed the past. But the trap of using time paradoxes as a literary device is that you create more questions than you solve along the way. In the end you just have to leave a lot of stuff half-explained and hope that you can think of a plot twist big enough to make people not care.

Anyway, so Hurley, Jack, Kate and 3 or 5 more made it off the island, as seen in the "flash-forward" scenes. But are they really off the island? Maybe these are just visits to possible futures, and when they debate "going back" they're not talking about going back physically to the island but to go back in time to the "present" so they could fix whatever happened that made them flash forward to such miserable futures.

Locke said Walt was bigger, which means that he saw a future Walt? According to the system the writers are setting up, Locke should have mind-traveled to a future Locke who heard the future Walt telling him to do whatever.

Time travel scenarios are interesting, but I don't want this to turn into some kind of cheesy Quantum Leap kinda thing. But what's the alternative then? They all wake up from a dream?
hamano
post #42  on March 6, 2008 - 9:09 AM PST  
Burning questions:

The "team" from the freighter.... why would anyone put them together? What do they have in common?

Daniel Faraday - A physicist interested in time travel. Has a device that looks like a pink lampshade.

Charlotte Lewis - An anthropologist. Is she a tribute to Indy Jones or that guy from Stargate? That scene where she visits the archaeological site in the desert seemed VERY familiar...

Miles Straume - Isn't that, like, a Marvel superhero name? Ghost whisperer with an attitude. Has a device that looks like a handy-vac.

Frank Lapidus - an alcoholic pilot who should have flown Oceanic 815?

Who do you think is the "mole" on the freighter who works for Ben? I assume he/she is the one who wrecked the radio room.

Was it out of character for Sawyer to just shoot Tom like that? But it seems life has gotten much cheaper on LOST recently. Even Hurley is a cold-blooded killer, weapon of choice: VW Microbus.

How did Greta and Bonnie pass their time while living in The Looking Glass? Just playing cards? Did they ever play "doctor?"

Oh, yeah, Sayid is one of the flash-forward survivors... I'm assuming he's working for Matthew Abaddon, the guy who put the freighter team together. He's very James Bond.
AstroAppa
post #43  on March 7, 2008 - 1:52 PM PST  
Who is ben's man on the boat? my guess is michael
Cinenaut
post #44  on March 7, 2008 - 4:55 PM PST  
Yeah, it's got to be Michael. A little birdy PM'd that suggestion to me and we were both struck at how long it took us to figure that one out.

This latest twist with Ben and Juliet is a nice way to amp up the tension on the island... and Ben has a new evil minion: Harper.

> On March 7, 2008 - 1:52 PM PST AstroAppa wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> Who is ben's man on the boat? my guess is michael
> ---------------------------------

troublemaker
post #45  on March 9, 2008 - 9:15 PM PDT  
> On March 6, 2008 - 8:42 AM PST hamano wrote:
> ---------------------------------

>
> Time travel scenarios are interesting, but I don't want this to turn into some kind of cheesy Quantum Leap kinda thing. But what's the alternative then? They all wake up from a dream?
> ---------------------------------

Those are some solid points Hamano. I really hope they don't use time travel as a cop-out explanation. It would be aggravating to know that a number of the events disregarded because they are just different perceptions or possibilities that could or have happened in another past or future. Did what I just write make any sense? haha.
Vanamonde
post #46  on March 10, 2008 - 12:00 AM PDT  
> I really hope they don't use time travel as a cop-out explanation.
> ---------------------------------

Major Spoilage! This is a spoiler thread, OK?


Hey, time travel or moving across parallel universes mean a hell of a lot more sense than Locke letting Ben run free, after all they went through. Damn, Ben didn't even explain about the smoke monster. I want someone to beat on him some more.

troublemaker
post #47  on March 14, 2008 - 6:51 PM PDT  
SPOILER

SPOILER

SPOILER




With that said.. so Michael is officially Ben's man on the boat. If one thing has become drastically clear this season is just how much control Ben seems to have in nearly all situations. More often than not, the man is usually one step ahead of everyone.

My roommate said he read theories that Ben:
-Has mastered inter-conscious time travel, so he's aware of most outcomes that could occur.
-Or if Ben doesn't time travel, then Jacob does (which explains Jacobs constant Houdini-act from the time-space continuum) and that Ben acts as Jacob's constant.
-Ben also seems to exert some type of control over the island. This could help explain why Walt was such an interest to the others.

I just can't believe there's only one episode left until who knows.. I hope they end up shooting the extra 5 episodes fairly quickly and are able to get them up! I need a 'lil more Lost in my life.

Did anyone else find this week's episode to be a bit too.. melodramatic?
Cinenaut
post #48  on March 14, 2008 - 9:50 PM PDT  
That was a nasty little trick with the split flashback / flash forward.
troublemaker
post #49  on March 15, 2008 - 12:02 PM PDT  
> On March 14, 2008 - 9:50 PM PDT Cinenaut wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> That was a nasty little trick with the split flashback / flash forward.
> ---------------------------------

It really was. Even for Lost it seemed a little.. too underhanded to its audience to pull that on us.
hamano
post #50  on March 16, 2008 - 11:12 PM PDT  
I'm still pretty sure that all this flash-forwarding is just an act. Who's gonna root for this show if you KNOW that only six will survive, and that those six will have really lousy (for the most part) lives after the rescue? We're being shown one possible outcome but the six will do something to alter it.

But if that happens it'll be like that season of Dallas where the death of one character over a whole season turned out to be a dream his wife was having. I guess we'll know for sure if Bob Newhart shows up to do a guest role.

So if Jin didn't make it, I assume there's one more 'survivor'... I wonder who. Sun, Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hugo, plus one more, right? Oh, Kate's 'son' Aaron is Claire's son? I guess that's all six then. But that means all through this last episode we should have known that Jin was dead, since Sun was the final Oceanic Six to be revealed. So shame on anyone who was fooled by intercutting flash forwards with flash backs.
troublemaker
post #51  on March 17, 2008 - 8:16 AM PDT  
> On March 16, 2008 - 11:12 PM PDT hamano wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> I'm still pretty sure that all this flash-forwarding is just an act. Who's gonna root for this show if you KNOW that only six will survive, and that those six will have really lousy (for the most part) lives after the rescue? We're being shown one possible outcome but the six will do something to alter it.



That's not to say only six survive. It just means that six got off the island.

I'm still not convinced that somewhere through season 5 that the show is not going to catch up with the flash forwarding, and that maybe season 6 will involve the Oceanic 6 making their way back to the island.

Then again, with all this time travel business this season it could very much be plausible that they will alter the terrible future they have ahead.
jross3
post #52  on March 17, 2008 - 11:23 AM PDT  
> On March 16, 2008 - 11:12 PM PDT hamano wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> I'm still pretty sure that all this flash-forwarding is just an act. Who's gonna root for this show if you KNOW that only six will survive, and that those six will have really lousy (for the most part) lives after the rescue? We're being shown one possible outcome but the six will do something to alter it.

Not necessarily; like troublemaker said, Jin could still be on the island. His tombstone said he died in September; didn't the plane crash in September? They could be saying he died in the crash, but really he's alive and well back on the island.
My wife and I think Ben may have gotten himself onto the first group of people to leave the island (they might have had people thinking it would be the first group of many?) then caused some sort of dramatic scene where the people with him have cause to believe they either can't go back or that everyone left behind is dead. Perhaps the gas Daniel thinks he's pacified?


Here's my pseudo-science theory:
The island exists not in the present but in the future; the Dharma initiative was formed in the future and spread out its tentacles into the past to stop the end of the world using the hatch station, the electro-magnetic device (time-travel core, methinks?), and the numbers, which somehow predict the end of the world (read on a Lost wiki site about a fake author's fake book on that subject; these might not be the "real" numbers, therefore, but numbers Dharma is using to stop or prevent the End). They also have other scientific interests which ultimately relate to their control of time (why else study polar bears, which are likely extinct in the future?). As reference to their time control, take Juliet's husband; she says she wants him hit by a bus, and poof, bus appears (and apparently not by accident).

Perhaps the End is related to the "quarantine" illness that we've heard so little of lately? Although some characters would say it was all a hoax, the French lady (and I know I need to go back and re-watch some of this to be sure) said those she was with had gotten sick. But on an island a lot of things can cause illness.
Then again, it may be that there is an illness, and one of its effects may cause fatal miscarriages. If it were widespread, this would certainly lead to the end of the world, and a great need for the best fertility doctor you can find - past or present.

I think Jacob lives further in the future - how much further, I don't know, but far enough to know the outcome of events and to make lists of who is needed on the island. He's probably one of the last people to live on the island, maybe THE last, and possibly a child or other descendant of some of the people on the island now. Certain people who are in tune with the island's magnetic pulse or whatever it is, or maybe simply the more psychic people, can see Jacob's cabin and see and hear Jacob, although there's no real indication from Jacob yet that he can see and/or hear any of them (one might assume he can, but this is some complex temporal physics we're ladling on here)...

it might be nothing, but a relative pointed out that in the title between commercials ("LOST" in front of a shadow of the island), it's not the island but a city reflected in the water. 1: it could mean alternate realities/parallel universes; 2: It could mean that there's a city on the island now, but by the time the island is used for its current purpose, the city is gone (which would have to be a long, long time indeed, unless Dharma cleared it out); 3: the island could be, instead of the future, in the distant past. This would seem like a decent time to try and alter the course of the future, so i'm guessing this is the most likely of these, but there's always 4: it doesn't mean anything (but in this show's history, everything means something at some point)


problems....
It probably can't work. Multiple examples have been put forward in the show so far: you can't change the future. Desmond couldn't change his future by changing his past and staying with Penny; he couldn't stop Charlie from dying, although he did prevent it a little. But it's circular reasoning: Desmond gives Faraday the right frequency, Faraday writes it down, keeps it, then gives it to Desmond. Faraday's entry in his notebook about Desmond wasn't "new" exactly; that part of his memory had just been (conveniently) blurred out by the Island's magna-time-tronic field (yeah, I made that up). And Faraday, every bit the expert in time physics, said it himself: you can't change the future. If you change the future, you change the past. The future already happened. it is every bit as unchangable as the past - Desmond had already gone back and told Penny to wait for his call before this season was written, because Penny had already been looking for him desperately (and apparently Desmond's comments about "an island" to her father did not fall on deaf ears).
You're not changing the past when you time travel, because in the past, your trip there already happened. It seems like you're changing things because you go back and do things, then in the future you see the results of your actions in a different way and see things you didn't before.
So you can't change the future or the past, but can you change the present? Desmond saved Charlie several times, but he did eventually die. still, he saw him dying several times and was able to change the details of his death each time. oh, this makes my head feel like it's full of cotton.
At least they're not taking the Star Trek approach, where you can know someone's time-traveled because the present/future is so totally different than it should be, then you can go back youself to stop them, and somehow when you get back everything's exactly the same as it used to be.... Lost seems to be a little more like Futurama, where Fry goes into the past and accidentally kills the man who's supposed to be his ancestor... but ends up becoming his own grandfather, so the timeline is unchanged.
Vanamonde
post #53  on March 18, 2008 - 1:07 AM PDT  
I tell you, between this weeks "Lost" and then "Jericho", it was a sad, sad week.

Can I have a hug? Or a Marx Brothers comedy?
hamano
post #54  on March 18, 2008 - 6:07 AM PDT  
> On March 17, 2008 - 11:23 AM PDT jross3 wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> You're not changing the past when you time travel, because in the past, your trip there already happened. It seems like you're changing things because you go back and do things, then in the future you see the results of your actions in a different way and see things you didn't before.

That's how writers USED to solve time paradox questions, but the mainstream view nowadays seems to be that you CAN change the past. But every time the past is changed it creates another possible future in an infinite number of possible futures. So the future you came from still exists along a timeline where you didn't change the past.

There are all sorts of imaginative ways to use time travel and parallel universes to write interesting stories. But once you play the time travel (or parallel universe) card you have to come up with a pretty clever resolution or it will backfire. On the other hand if you have sexy and/or interesting characters you can still keep viewers watching for a while. LOST stacked the decks with sexy/interesting so they'll be okay for some time, but if they're not careful the show will end up like Journeyman.

The other possibility is that they're going for an all-out "spiritual" explanation of what's going on. "Miraculous" or supernatural explanations work very well for a certain segment of the audience. Depending on how new age they go the LOST audience might be satisfied by such a resolution, but it's a lot riskier than a SF resolution....
jross3
post #55  on March 20, 2008 - 5:01 AM PDT  
k, no time to reply atm but for the benefit of all, someone else's reply:





----------------------------------------
On 2008-03-17 13:10:02.28, SirenTiger wrote:
"Not necessarily; like troublemaker said, Jin could still be on the island. His tombstone said he died in September; didn't the plane crash in September? They could be saying he died in the crash, but really he's alive and well back on the island."

Did the tombstone say "Sept"? Well, that'd make sense. According to Jack's testimony and Hurley's "official" statement during his arrest, the "official" story they are telling to the press is that only a handful survived the flight and of those only six survived the aftermath of the next week or so. So if Jin dies in, say Feb., the official story will be he died in Sept. Then again if Jin doesn't die at all, the official story would still be that he died in Sept.

Of course, if Jin didn't die we have to wonder how the circumstance came about that Sun leaves the island (well, that's a no-brainer... she'll die if she doesn't leave in the next three week) but Jin stays in hiding.

Actually, the really question isn't how/why did Jin, Sawyer, Claire, Locke, Rose, Bernard, etc. die/stay on the island but really why *did* the Oceanic 6 in particular leave the island.

They had a cover story that they 6 were the only survivors of the crash and its immediate aftermath and, I presume, that nothing of note happened on the island (no others, no hatch, no monster). So what became of Julliette, Desmond, and others who were not on Flight 815?

And why did Desmond see Claire and Aaron getting into a helo-copter?

Anyhow, did you fall for the Jin Flash-back fake out? Did you catch the "This is the year of the dragon" clue? (2000-2001 was the last year of the dragon; June 2005, if the flash-forward was the same pregnancy, was the year of the Rooster).

Dharma in the future... neat idea! I'm pretty sure the flash-forwards aren't a fake out "possible future" that never comes to be. The writers specifically said they aren't going to do anything "cheesy" like that. Of course, one man's cheesy is another man's clever. But the specifically said that they aren't doing alternate futures, it was all a dream, they are all dead, the island exists in an alternate reality, or nanotechnology.

Sorry, I'm not posting to the board. I can't as I'm not paying to rent.



----------------------------------------
On 2008-03-17 16:21:11.78, SirenTiger wrote:
Jin's tombstone says Jin was born Nov. 27, 1974 and died Sept. 22, 2004, the date of the crash. So the tombstone is definately a lie as to the date. So if they lie about the date of his death, they might as well lie about him being dead at all.

Sun's birthday, BTW, is March 20, 1980.


[very much along my line of reasoning, SirenTiger. Perhaps we will get some new clues tonight?]
hamano
post #56  on March 20, 2008 - 5:28 AM PDT  
LOL, I see I'm not the only one getting the Woozy LOST Digest! You'd think if "not paying the rent" stops him from posting to the boards it would keep him from spamming us as well. I'll add to here to save space in my mailbox.

hamano wrote:
> I'm still pretty sure that all this flash-forwarding is just an act. Who's gonna root for this show if you KNOW that only six will survive, and that those six will have really lousy (for the most part) lives after the rescue?
---------

Except we know that the six are all lying. Sayid's, Jack's, Kate, and Hurley's flashforward all claimed that they are lying about what occurred on the island to protect their friends who are not the Oceanic Six. Jack's testimony at Kate's trial even claimed that there were only ten or so survivors but four died later and if it hadn't been for Kate not even the six would have survived. And Hurley lied about Anna Lucia not surviving. And Sayid is assinating for Ben to protect his friends, who I assumed were the folks still on the island. And so on.

I'm pretty sure that the Oceanic Six are only the six the public know about and that several, if not all, others are alive on the island or alive off the island in hiding. I'm not so sure, but quite posibly getting off the island isn't "the end of the story".

I didn't fall for the split forward/back. I'm suspicious of the flash forwards that I ask myself, if what I'm seeing "has" to be what I think it is. So, for example, when I first saw Kate on trial I asked myself "Could this really be a flash-back and they are trying to psych me out into thinking this is a flash-forward" (as they did a few weeks later with Juliette's flash-back) or when I saw Harper appearing with whispers I asked myself "Is the twist ending going to be that Harper is dead and Julliette knows it". In both cases I was wrong, but when I saw Jin panicing on his cell phone I asked myself "Could this scene be an utterly different time and place than Sun giving birth". As the show went on the distinct absense of any connection merely confirmed my suspicions. When the shop-keeper tried to sell Jin a dragon because "it is the year of the dragon" I knew I would have to look up the Chinese zodiac on wikipedia as soon as the show was over.

(2005 was the year of the Rooster.)
SirenTiger
post #57  on April 25, 2008 - 12:43 AM PDT  
Fixed Point Theorem Violation: Detected tear in narrative

Well, that certainly was an ... active episode. But it does seem as though the story is literally going all over the map.

I do enjoy seeing Sawyer getting protective over Hurley though! Who else besides me would enjoy some slash fiction of Hurley and Sawyer cuddling in Sawyer's tent with Sawyer gently caressing the curly hairs on Hugo's head resting against Sawyer's bare chest?
Cinenaut
post #58  on April 25, 2008 - 9:47 AM PDT  
Speaking for myself... it's just you. LOL But that was one of the highlights of the episode.

That was an action-packed episode. The writers are certainly setting Ben up to be a jealous, vengeful, international man of mystery psycho, aren't they? And watch out for that extendable baton!

I just had to laugh as Sawyer dodged bullets while all the "red shirts" were getting mowed down. Afterward, the only one anybody cared about was Claire.

It was high time for a smoke monster appearance.

The writers really cleared up the reason for Sayid's helping Ben quickly, didn't they?
Cinenaut
post #59  on April 25, 2008 - 9:48 AM PDT  
Welcome back to the boards, SirenTiger! You're no longer the GC message boards puppetmaster, pulling the strings behind the scenes.
underdog
post #60  on April 25, 2008 - 3:26 PM PDT  
> On April 25, 2008 - 9:47 AM PDT Cinenaut wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> Speaking for myself... it's just you. LOL But that was one of the highlights of the episode.
>
> That was an action-packed episode. The writers are certainly setting Ben up to be a jealous, vengeful, international man of mystery psycho, aren't they? And watch out for that extendable baton!

So Ben knows he's traveling ahead in time? (He asks what day and year it is) Or was it just a show flash forward? That and the fact that he was dropped right into the middle of the desert disoriented were the only hints that he was time traveling.
>
> I just had to laugh as Sawyer dodged bullets while all the "red shirts" were getting mowed down. Afterward, the only one anybody cared about was Claire.

I laughed too. Each of those idiotic people would step outside, go "huh?" and then die. Then another would come out to save the last person, say "huh?!" and die. Etc. Seemed delightfully ludicrous to me. Good way to get rid of a bunch of extras basically.
>
> It was high time for a smoke monster appearance.

So what's the deal with that thing? Ben controls it? Or someone does, anyway. He summoned it just when they needed an escape, a smoke screen as it were.
>

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