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1063

Lists I Like
Topic by: AKrizman
Posted: September 23, 2003 - 4:48 PM PDT
Last Reply: October 10, 2003 - 2:40 PM PDT

page  1  2  3      prev | next
author topic: Lists I Like
ColonelKong
post #21  on September 25, 2003 - 7:59 PM PDT  

> 3. Lists that have Padding.
> Padding: Generic term for 'I haven't seen this yet, but...', or 'this movie sucks but...', or 'This is just a placeholder until X is released on DVD'. Lists that are succinct and have only good movies are the best.

I'm guilty of doing this a couple of times, but I don't feel that including a couple of movies that I haven't seen yet on my Lovecraft list was padding it out since the point of it was to list Lovecraft-based movies and there's no way to search for movies by the author of the source material they're based on (if any).

I just got back from hearing Simpsons writer/consulting producer Mike Reiss speak, I enjoyed it a lot. I didn't have any questions for him since I feel like a lot of the stuff I would've asked was covered by listening to the commentaries on the Simpsons DVD sets. I've seen most of the clips he brought with him before, except for a Tracy Ullman short, some footage of Dan Castelleneta doing voices, and an episode of the flash cartoon Queer Duck (watching an flash cartoon with jokes about gay porn projected on a really big screen with a bunch of people in a big room at a moderate-sized University was a somewhat surreal experience!)
AKrizman
post #22  on September 25, 2003 - 8:04 PM PDT  
> I'm guilty of doing this a couple of times,

Oy! I'm guilty of probably *all* those things. I guess I don't think of these as commandments, just guidelines. Certainly context matters. I'd agree that if you were doing a Lovecraft list, you ought to put all the titles to be complete, even if you haven't seen it or it sucked.
AKrizman
post #23  on September 25, 2003 - 8:08 PM PDT  
> Was "Season of the Witch" used in Drugstore Cowboy?
> Because I haven't seen it in some time, but I sure remember it being used in the closing credits of To Die For

Aaah yes. It *was* To Die For, not Drugstore Cowboy. Somehow I got my Van Sants in a knot.
AKrizman
post #24  on September 25, 2003 - 8:20 PM PDT  
> My biggest pet peeve about lists is the "My favorite movies" or "Movies that are cool" lists, why should I care what a complete stranger's favorite movies are? Also, PLEASE put more than 2 or 3 movies on your list!
> ---------------------------------

I have to defend the 'Favorites' lists.

They make good lists on their own if the list is short, the movies are close in genre, and there're are at least a couple of obscure gems (cuz *everybody* likes Amelie).

But even when they're not good stand alone lists, they're helpful for getting to know people. The favorite movie section on the profile page is too small for most people, so it's helpful to make a list and put a link to it on your profile page.
ColonelKong
post #25  on September 25, 2003 - 8:47 PM PDT  
> I have to defend the 'Favorites' lists.
>
> They make good lists on their own if the list is short, the movies are close in genre, and there're are at least a couple of obscure gems (cuz *everybody* likes Amelie).
>
> But even when they're not good stand alone lists, they're helpful for getting to know people. The favorite movie section on the profile page is too small for most people, so it's helpful to make a list and put a link to it on your profile page.

Well, maybe I was being a little harsh, I probably should have said that lists of favorites with 3 or 4 completely unrelated films annoy me. I suppose you're right that they would be useful for getting to know people, it's just that I haven't personally gotten to know anyone better through such a list.

I wouldn't know what to put on it, but "Akira Kurosawa's Favorite Movies" would be an interesting list, I know that he put My Neighbor Totoro on his list of his 100 favorite movies of the 20th century.

larbeck
post #26  on September 25, 2003 - 9:59 PM PDT  
> On September 24, 2003 - 10:16 PM PDT hamano wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> And apologies to larbeck, but I think a list should be of a manageable size... I'm like Aya Hisakawa's number one fan, but his list of titles with her as a seiyuu is too big to be really useful.
>
> I've been avoiding this problem by adding Vol. 1 of a series to my list, then making a hyperlink to search/display the entire series, but this takes up valuable review space.
> ---------------------------------

Man, I wish I had thought of that - you probably realize the trouble it saves!

When I get time.....and no apologies necessary - I apprecitate the feedbeck.

dpowers
post #27  on September 25, 2003 - 10:44 PM PDT  
yeah i'd agree with that, avoiding being a catalog for everything, just pick out the really good stuff.

but what to do with the rest, i'll tell ya. lots of times people've made lists that were offshoots from a conversation on the boards. but if you have a hundred titles you want to include in your list, here are some possibilities:

1. make two lists, the good and the enormous. link them to each other in the descriptions.

2. make the short list and then post a new topic on the boards with the rest of what you want to include. link to the list in the thread, and link to the thread in the list. then add titles to either the thread or the list as you wish, depending on whether they're must see or follow up.

3. write primer-like document and post it to the boards. include neato turns in the person's career in your write-up, and recommend juicy bits at the bottom. make a list of the juicy bits.
hamano
post #28  on September 26, 2003 - 3:17 AM PDT  
> On September 25, 2003 - 4:50 PM PDT AKrizman wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> Generally, I'm pretty generous with my ratings, but I have given out a few 1s. I feel guilty about it because I don't want to discourage anyone from making lists (bad lists are better than no lists), but it is important to separate the useful lists out from the noise.
> ---------------------------------

But this is why the list rating system doesn't really work! Nothing personal, AKrizman, but a few ratings nazis can skew the "value" of a list with a 1 or 2 rating based on one person's subjective judgement. How about a rating system where everyone starts with a 7, and visitors can click on a "up" or "down" arrow, or "same"?

I've made a list or two targeted at anime fans with specific genre tastes, or who are interested in how the works of one studio might have evolved over the years. This might (or might not be) worth a 7 to 10 rating to someone who is seriously getting interested in anime, but a GreenCiner who is here to look for film adaptations of great English novels might give the same list a 1 to 3 rating (if they're feeling cranky).

The current ratings system won't be very useful unless 200 or so GreenCiners are compelled to come and register their vote for each list. The current system easily falls prey to people who have moments of sadistic or self-righteous impulses to "bomb" lists that may merely "disagree" with them.

> ---------------------------------
> 5 Things that cause me to drop a point or two from the rating of a list.
>
> 5. Lists that are filmographies of an actor or a director.
> ---------------------------------

I would say "lists that are EASILY available somewhere else"... for example I can go to IMDB and type in Hitchcock to get a complete and accurate filmography. Otherwise, a handy list of all of Derek Jarman's films, say, might be useful. Maybe there should be a system for classifying lists with keywords to make list searches more functional.

> ---------------------------------
> 4. Lists that don't have any comments.
> You gotta give me somethin' here.
> ---------------------------------

There are a couple of lists that are self-explanatory....but I mostly agree with this rule.

> ---------------------------------
> 3. Lists that have Padding.
> ....Lists that are succinct and have only good movies are the best.
> ---------------------------------

In terms of making the "rent all" button useful, this would be a good rule. However, someone interested in film history or culture may want to see "bad" movies on a list if it contributes to a list's completeness or if knowing that such a film exists is thought-provoking in itself. Hmmm... I've NEVER used the "rent all" button. Usually I've seen more than 2 films on every list I've liked. And some people LIKE bad movies...

> ---------------------------------
> 1. Alphabetical Order.
> This is my own special pet peave that probably noone else cares much about. In the 20th century we had to alphabetize index cards and folders so we could find them in filing cabinets, but now in the Third Millennium, we have computers to do this work for us!
> ---------------------------------

I think I've seen only a couple of lists that are guilty of this... probably mostly because it's such a headache to "move up" and "move down" to change the list order once it's made! If someone's worked all night to create a list in alphabetical order, I say good job! Of course in Japan, effort counts more than results...

Some kind of ORDER is useful as long as it makes sense contextually. Chronological if the list has a historical intent, in order of one's preference if its a "my favorites", organized by continents if it's a "trip around the world".

There you go, someone should do an "Around the World in 80 Films" list of road pictures from different countries!
chester
post #29  on September 26, 2003 - 8:59 AM PDT  
> On September 24, 2003 - 2:50 PM PDT underdog wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> I loved that stop-motion animation list too!
> Hey, you should add Creature Comforts to that list -- one of my favorite animated shorts ever.
>
>
> ---------------------------------

Thanks! I don't know how I missed that. Anyway, it's added, now.

Though I don't think I was as overly impressed with it as everyone else seems to be...

underdog
post #30  on September 26, 2003 - 10:10 AM PDT  
> On September 26, 2003 - 3:17 AM PDT hamano wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> > On September 25, 2003 - 4:50 PM PDT AKrizman wrote:
> > ---------------------------------
> > Generally, I'm pretty generous with my ratings, but I have given out a few 1s. I feel guilty about it because I don't want to discourage anyone from making lists (bad lists are better than no lists), but it is important to separate the useful lists out from the noise.
> > ---------------------------------
>
> But this is why the list rating system doesn't really work! Nothing personal, AKrizman, but a few ratings nazis can skew the "value" of a list with a 1 or 2 rating based on one person's subjective judgement. How about a rating system where everyone starts with a 7, and visitors can click on a "up" or "down" arrow, or "same"?
>


I confess I've "cheated" a bit a few times when someone seriously underrated a list that didn't quite warrant the harshness. If it received a single "1" vote, I've given the list a rating higher than I normally would have just to get its overall rating up closer to where it should be. And I'd have no objection to others doing the same.

The fact is that no system is perfect or will satisfy everyone as completely fair or righteous.

Btw, some great suggestions here as to what makes a good or bad list; actually some of them are in our FAQ, but I don't know how many people even look at that ((sniffle)) so it's good to get it out there somewhere else.

C
dpowers
post #31  on September 26, 2003 - 11:19 AM PDT  
i defend anyone's right to put anything in alphabetical order. if the movies are too diverse other orders imply a relationship that isn't there and the list feels dishonest.

true though there is usually a better way to arrange titles that are of a theme. using that "headings" trick to group the titles inside the list might help jog the brain into a more creative order.

underdog if ya wanna da people ta lookit da FAQ ya gatta PUT da LINK wheres we kin SEE da link
underdog
post #32  on September 26, 2003 - 11:39 AM PDT  
> On September 26, 2003 - 11:19 AM PDT dpowers wrote:

> underdog if ya wanna da people ta lookit da FAQ ya gatta PUT da LINK wheres we kin SEE da link
> ---------------------------------

Hee. But it's right here, under me and to the right, see? \|/

Hmm, maybe we should add it to the nav bar on the left, too.





dh22
post #33  on September 26, 2003 - 12:55 PM PDT  
I know I'm a bit late, but I must completely disagree with that Movies Mocked by The Simpsons list. Most of the movies listed in that list were not mocked by The Simpsons, they were merely referenced in the show in a quote or two. The Great Escape, yes, Marry Poppins, definately, but half the other movies in there were not mocked.

Oh, and I completely agree with hamano regarding the list voting. Its a shame, I say, a shame. But it is a problem. If I post a lits of Steven Spielberg films, what's the point of voting on it. It is what it is. You can't disagree with it. If you hate everything on there that doesn't mean the list isn't valid. However, let's say you put a list together of the best of something. How is a newcomer suppose to know if you know what the heck you are talking about unless you get peer approval of your list.

> 5. Lists that are filmographies of an actor or a director.
> Th catalog is already sortable by actor or director;
> these lists don't provide any new information. These
> lists can be redeemed if: a) there are useful comments on
> each entry, b) if they are not exhaustive ('Hitchcock's
> silent films' or 'My 5 favorite Hitchcock films' as
> opposed to 'Every Hitchcock film every made'), or c) if
> they are sorted informatively (ranked in order of
> quality, or listed chronologically).

I just read that by kriz. I must agree, so I guess all lists should be subjective, but we may need something a little better to rate them then just user voting. People need to understand that you have to vote on a list based on its value as a list, not because you don't like the movies that are in it.

This is all so confusing, I'm gunna go nap. Should have kept quiet.
dpowers
post #34  on September 26, 2003 - 1:59 PM PDT  
nice doggie, pretty doggie
hamano
post #35  on September 26, 2003 - 4:21 PM PDT  
I was thinking about that pesky "rent all" button and I had a thought. I would think that very few GreenCiners, except for very young members or for people who have only recently regained their vision, actually ever USE that button. Why not put boxes next to each title in a list that can be checked, and allocate the "rent all" button to just the checked titles?
chester
post #36  on September 26, 2003 - 9:39 PM PDT  
> On September 26, 2003 - 4:21 PM PDT hamano wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> I was thinking about that pesky "rent all" button and I had a thought. I would think that very few GreenCiners, except for very young members or for people who have only recently regained their vision, actually ever USE that button...

Actually, I think that's a relatively new feature based on requests from members; correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure someone will :) )

underdog
post #37  on September 26, 2003 - 9:55 PM PDT  
> On September 26, 2003 - 9:39 PM PDT chester wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> > On September 26, 2003 - 4:21 PM PDT hamano wrote:
> > ---------------------------------
> > I was thinking about that pesky "rent all" button and I had a thought. I would think that very few GreenCiners, except for very young members or for people who have only recently regained their vision, actually ever USE that button...
>
> Actually, I think that's a relatively new feature based on requests from members; correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure someone will :) )
>
>
> ---------------------------------

Yes, quite a few people use that feature and have told us they like it and requested it. Comes in handy if you want to, say, put all of Dustin Hoffman's films in your queue, just as it does if you find a member list you like and want to check out all the recommended films. Sure, it comes in less handy when a list is three pages long ;-) (I certainly don't want to rent all of John Wayne's films, just a few would do me fine... ) But for certain situations, for a given director or actor, or a list, it can work well for some members.

I'm not sure why it's pesky. You can just put a piece of masking tape over your monitor in that spot if it bugs ya. (hehe)

Cheers,

C
NLee
post #38  on September 27, 2003 - 9:37 AM PDT  
> On September 26, 2003 - 9:55 PM PDT underdog wrote:
> ---------------------------------
(about the pesky "rent all" button)
> I'm not sure why it's pesky. You can just put a piece of masking tape over your monitor in that spot if it bugs ya. (hehe)

But I have to keep on removing and re-sticking the same masking tape everytime I visit a new list. That's what makes the "rent all" button so pesky!
^_^

Speaking of pesky buttons... I always thought the "related list" column on my "Q" page is completely useless. Afterall, I have already added this movie to my "Q", so what's the point in knowing whether it is included in somebody's list or not?

hamano
post #39  on September 27, 2003 - 9:52 AM PDT  
> On September 26, 2003 - 9:55 PM PDT underdog wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> Yes, quite a few people use that feature and have told us they like it and requested it. Comes in handy if you want to, say, put all of Dustin Hoffman's films in your queue

> I'm not sure why it's pesky. You can just put a piece of masking tape over your monitor in that spot if it bugs ya.
> ---------------------------------

Hmm... it's "pesky" because I'm sometimes tempted to use it, but there's always 3 or 4 films on a list that I've already seen, and I'm always reminded that it would actually be useful if you could just "rent all checked". That spot under the tape COULD be useful with a minor improvement to the interface. I'm not saying "I hate it get rid of it" but rather "it's almost perfect please make it better" :-)

I do see now that the button also appears under a list generated by the search engine, and that's more useful, I guess. However, it would be handy if there was some kind of "exclude" feature, either in defining the search parameters ( like +"dustin hoffman" -"tootsie") OR a checkbox in the results. I'm not griping because I'm cranky. I use search engines a LOT for work, and it's frustrating when I can't get good results...

Well, I guess now I understand how someone could have close to a thousand titles in their queue....
dpowers
post #40  on September 27, 2003 - 10:09 AM PDT  
insanity.
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