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Public Discussions

topics
GreenCine Tech Talk
Hardware, Software, Tech.
The nuts and bolts of movie making, home theater, and DVD.
76

GCMUG (GreenCine Mac Users' Group)
Topic by: hamano
Posted: November 22, 2003 - 12:43 AM PST
Last Reply: February 6, 2007 - 5:12 PM PST

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author topic: GCMUG (GreenCine Mac Users' Group)
dpowers
post #21  on January 21, 2004 - 10:34 AM PST  
it makes a lot of sense for microsoft to be developing an emulator for windows - guarantees at least one emulator will run windows properly - but there is another in the works somewhere out there, rumors say, an extremely fast method of translating one processor instruction set to another.
hamano
post #22  on January 21, 2004 - 11:36 AM PST  
> On January 21, 2004 - 10:34 AM PST dpowers wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> it makes a lot of sense for microsoft to be developing an emulator for windows - guarantees at least one emulator will run windows properly - > ---------------------------------

I remember when SONY bought out Virtual Playstation from Connectix, only to shut it down... Microsoft owning Virtual PC makes perfect sense to Mr. Gates, I'm sure.... That way, when it's convenient for them, they can just do away with Virtual PC altogether. I tend to think "developing" might be too generous a term for what they actually do in Redmond. I hope the rumor is true that a third party is developing a new emulator...
dpowers
post #23  on January 21, 2004 - 12:07 PM PST  
no, they're using it, microsoft is. it helps techie people test things - with virtual pc installed, you can run different versions of windows, each in their own virtual space, on a computer that is incompatible with anything but the latest - that's why they really bought it.

who knows about the mac version. making it work with the G5 was a big job (i've heard) - G5 is missing a fancy function that made the G4 excellent for emulating an x86 - so MS spent a bunch of resources reworking for the new brain.
hamano
post #24  on February 1, 2004 - 5:48 AM PST  
> On January 20, 2004 - 2:03 AM PST dpowers wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> according to various rumor sites, apple and IBM are happily projecting a 5x speed advantage over planned chips from intel or AMD by the end of 2006. in addition, they are quietly anticipating that that future mac will be able to run windows, in emulation, twice as fast as any comparably-priced windows-native computer available at that time.
> ---------------------------------

A measure of how jealous some Windoze/DOS drones are of Apple's success...
This is an .avi file, so you might wanna download it rather than view it on the browser...
hamano
post #25  on February 3, 2004 - 9:35 AM PST  
Yay, I've got Panther running on my eMac and my iBook (I got the "family" bundle). I wonder if I buy some RAM I can get it on the 333Mhz USB-only iMac? I'll have to see how big the 'drive is.

We popped for a big Maxtor FW/USB external drive to back everything up before installing the OS upgrade...
dpowers
post #26  on February 4, 2004 - 4:53 AM PST  
panther is good. update the software immediately though. there's a nasty bug in 10.3 concerning firewire drives.
hamano
post #27  on February 4, 2004 - 5:53 AM PST  
Done! Also got some kinda app that has a bunch of smileys... happy happy!

In retrospect, I encountered that bug a coupla times. Greyed my screen, requiring a forced shutdown.... no damage, nothing lost...
dpowers
post #28  on February 4, 2004 - 9:31 AM PST  
333 imac might be okay. enough memory, by my reckoning, is >256MB. otherwise the combination of slow brain, tight working space, slow hard drive, and no video acceleration... naptime!
underdog
post #29  on February 4, 2004 - 10:22 AM PST  
Hey, does anyone know how many steps I'd have to take on my Mac G4, to get from system 8.6(something) to X, preferably Panther?

I assume I have to first upgrade to 9 and then to 10, but is there more than that? And can I used the System 9 that comes with X?

My poor G4 is feeling so left behind... (I just added more memory to it so it should be okay now.)

C
hamano
post #30  on February 4, 2004 - 11:03 AM PST  
Welcome, underdog! Did you buy your G4 new, or used? If it's a G4 it should have some discs that came with it that has an early version of OS X on them... am I wrong, deepee?
dpowers
post #31  on February 4, 2004 - 11:19 AM PST  
you're doing a double step. some 8.6 stuff is mildly unhappy in 9, and some 9 stuff is mildly unhappy running in X's "classic" mode. expect a few non-X applications to be unreliable if they're old.

still looking for info on 8.6->9.2.2->10.3

panther installer does not include a bootable version of 9, as far as i can tell.
dpowers
post #32  on February 4, 2004 - 11:21 AM PST  
far far more reliable and easy to upgrade 9->X than X->X !!! install no X but 10.3 please, it will make your older computer happier.
dpowers
post #33  on February 4, 2004 - 11:51 AM PST  
yes definitely 9.2.2 needs to be installed before panther if you want to be able to boot into 9 sometimes (you may have to to run some software).

here's a free how-to-migrate document from apple.

probably the best thing to do would be to snag a 9 CD somewhere, and:

1. READ THE HARDWARE REQUIREMENTS in the migrate booklet - you may have some stuff to do before you can install - panther needs 2GB space for itself, and another 2-4GB of space for its virtual memory files. (there's a useful checklist on page 84.)
2. back everything up.
3. boot from the 9 CD to run disk first aid.
4. install 9.
5. if the install disc was for a version lower than 9.2.2, run the software update control panel to get to 9.2.2.
6. boot from the 9 CD again and run disk first aid again.
7. now you're up to the panther installer, p14 of the migrate booklet.
dpowers
post #34  on February 4, 2004 - 11:16 PM PST  
that earlier rumor...

> spring or summer 2005
> PowerPC 976 - POWER5 Dual Core, 65nm SSOI (Strained Silicon On Insulator) process, VMX2 instructions, 4GHz+
> this is an extremely badass chip. twin brains, very heavy-duty vector calculation capacity, high speed... a real-time CGI monster.

because microsoft, sony, and some other big players are going to invest in the POWER series so that they can use these kick-ass processors in their game machines, that PPC 976 dual core mofo could be available in macs as early as january next year. (the rest of the schedule would move forward also.)

what would that machine be like, one year from now?

the 975 will have twice the kick of the current 970, AKA "G5"
the 976 will have twice the kick of the 975

so, assuming that the dual-976 will the the top mac of the crop, come january 2005, you could buy one computer that has the processing power of FOUR DUAL 2.0GHz G5 MACHINES, for around the price of the current top dual-CPU machine.
underdog
post #35  on February 5, 2004 - 11:23 AM PST  
> On February 4, 2004 - 11:03 AM PST hamano wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> Welcome, underdog! Did you buy your G4 new, or used? If it's a G4 it should have some discs that came with it that has an early version of OS X on them... am I wrong, deepee?
> ---------------------------------

Thanks! And my G4 was actually a hand-me-down from my Dad (who works at a University and gets discounts on these things). I do have a system disc that came with it but it was definitely pre-X. I'll double-check to see what version of 9, if any, it has on it when I'm next home.
underdog
post #36  on February 5, 2004 - 11:24 AM PST  
> On February 4, 2004 - 11:51 AM PST dpowers wrote:
> ---------------------------------
> yes definitely 9.2.2 needs to be installed before panther if you want to be able to boot into 9 sometimes (you may have to to run some software).
> (ETC)

Thanks DP! Very useful... I will probably install one more memory chip before I try an upgrade.

C
dpowers
post #37  on February 5, 2004 - 11:50 AM PST  
ah-ha! i think i have found why this is happening so fast.

it turns out that apple's recent full commitment to using IBM brains isn't really what drove IBM to add G4-like vector processing to their version of the PPC.

for about ten years, the trend in supercomputing has been to take intel or AMD servers and wire them together to make a really big machine, for cheap. this is great, except that 1) x86 processors are not designed to do massive numerical calculations and 2) standard x86 motherboards don't move fast enough to the processor - so on science tasks, where immense number sets are moving all around from brain to brain, it takes a lot of processors to do a big job like model global warming, or a nuclear explosion - and even then, it's not nearly as good a job as it could be.

in 2002, after the unveiling of the earth simulator science-oriented computer system in japan, certain national nuclear labs and IBM announced that they were working on blue planet, a science-oriented supercomputer whose principal goal is the beat the pants off the earth simulator, on the cheap.

this would be because the IBM machine would mix the approaches of the server-farm trend and the custom-built earth simulator. off the shelf systems might still be used, but they would be designed with the assistance of the department of energy (parent to the nuke labs), so that future POWER chips would have data bandwidth and vector processing capabilities that would make them enormously useful for science research.

it just so happens that if you take a little of the heavy-duty structure out of this new nuke-lab-approved POWER processor, you get a great brain for a consumer computer device - especially if that device is going to be doing a lot of number-heavy work - like a mac, in the media industry, or like the xbox or playstation, playing photo-realistic simulation games.

numbers have also recently become much more important to general personal computing. video and audio compression and decompression are very processor-intensive, as is video gaming. in comparison, ordinary business computing focuses on using the various parts of the computer in tandem to complete a user-paced task, where sometimes the only things that matter about the machine are its keyboard and mouse.

so when you pick up your bright shiny new silver G5 or G6 box, say a little polite thank-you to our home team's nuclear proliferation experts. a little old-fashioned cold war paranoia goes a long way!
dpowers
post #38  on February 5, 2004 - 12:35 PM PST  
craig if you're still a student the edu price for panther is $69 - get a copy - having the main install disc around for hard drive repair is helpful.
dpowers
post #39  on February 5, 2004 - 1:00 PM PST  
about the supercomputer stuff.

maybe the biggest computer story of last year was the virginia tech supercomputer. 1100 stock G5 desktops hooked together become the world's 3rd fastest known supercomputer, about $5 million, and they assembled it in less than 3 weeks.

the blue planet project sort of changes how i see what happened with virginia tech.

the storyline about the virginia tech system goes like this. they came up with a plan for hooking together stock desktop machines and making a supercomputer. none of the intel- or AMD-based systems had the numerical or I/O capacity they needed. then they heard about the G5 and liked what it could do, and decided to go with it. it was such a quick decision that apple pushed its existing waiting list of individual customers aside for a month to deliver the machines virginia tech needed. (it was great marketing!)

okay that's the story. but the real story is, that the G5 processor and accompanying motherboard were IBM's first publicly available steps toward the science-monster system envisioned by the blue planet project - the G5, or PPC 970, was the first IBM PPC device to include a vector processing unit - and it was basically latched on with gum, though it works well enough. (the POWER 5, this year's server-class PPC chip, has a vector unit well and truly built-in, so the PPC 975, based on the POWER 5, will probably be one of the best consumer number-crunching chips ever made.)

so, whether virginia tech knew it or not, that there was such a thing as the powermac G5, and that it met their needs, was not accidental, but a by-product of the DOE plan.
dpowers
post #40  on February 5, 2004 - 1:06 PM PST  
so who should we thank, osama or dubya?
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