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Shounen or Shoujo?
	Topic by: AFleming Posted: November 17, 2004 - 4:46 PM PST Last Reply: December 6, 2004 - 9:34 AM PST

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author	topic: Shounen or Shoujo?
NLee	post #21  on November 18, 2004 - 9:42 AM PST   > On November 18, 2004 - 9:24 AM PST hamano wrote: > --------------------------------- > Mizuki-sensei is stacked, and is not a BAD girl... > --------------------------------- But do they jiggle? We REAL men have the proud blood of hunter-warrior tribes. We don't see no boobs unless they bounce and jiggle.
hamano	post #22  on November 18, 2004 - 9:45 AM PST   OK, NLee, you win! You get to live with KPman1 and mci4tx in the Blue Tent. I'll live in this Pink tent and hang my head in shame...
Catullus	post #23  on November 18, 2004 - 10:35 AM PST   > On November 18, 2004 - 5:31 AM PST AFleming wrote: > --------------------------------- > Thanks to DBoo and ham-man-oh! And Cat, though I really didn't understand ur post, heehee. > --------------------------------- I plead fatigue, ive worked 64 out of the last 72 hours (out of 9 days) and thats including waking up everyday at 5am! agh no time to stay concious and watch anime when i get home when the world of warcraft beta had my attention >_< oh and Phiraxis u are awesome don't change you cool icon, ill make myself a new one.
RWaller	post #24  on November 18, 2004 - 10:37 AM PST   > On November 18, 2004 - 9:24 AM PST hamano wrote: > --------------------------------- > How NLee ended up watching Cardcaptor Sakura thinking it was a kick-ass shounen show. (edited for length) Well, there ya go. You weren't paying attention to Yukito and his bishie alter-ego, and Touya's crush on him which is even worse (and funnier) than Sakura's. But otherwise, it *IS* a kick-ass shounen show, with lots of action and great babes. Maria-sama ga Miteru is another example of how things are going ... it's basically a shoujo soaper, or it would be, except it's done for a general audience. Lots of concessions to the guys: (1) the girls are curvy and cute, and there are no tall willowy Angela Bowie types at all, except for Rei who is the exception that proves the rule, (2) the story is not totally overwraught with life-and-death crises, shocking secrets, betrayals and suicides, and overall is more heartwarming than morbid, (3) it doesn't rain all the time, (4) there's actually some comedy and even some SD from Yumi-chan. I won't even go into all the EVA type stories that there are, like Ceres, with both giant robots et al AND soapy romance with both tall bishie guys AND stacked babes who make funny faces. It really does seem to be blurring too much to call now, and that's undoubtedly a good thing, it means that ultimately boy and girl anime fans can probably get married and not spend the rest of their lives fighting over the remote.
hamano	post #25  on November 18, 2004 - 10:51 AM PST   > On November 18, 2004 - 10:37 AM PST RWaller wrote: > --------------------------------- > But otherwise, it *IS* a kick-ass shounen show, with lots of action and great babes. > > Maria-sama ga Miteru is another example I really loved that scene in episode 2 where the giant Madonna statue in the courtyard came to to life and started trashing Tokyo, looking for the corpse of her son Jesus. All the girls in the student coucil had to combine their powers to take her down, using those "electric crucifix and sickle on a chain" things. Poor Jesus, I couldn't believe the SDF actually nailed him to the Tokyo Tower to lure Madonna out.
RWaller	post #26  on November 18, 2004 - 11:03 AM PST   > On November 18, 2004 - 10:51 AM PST hamano wrote: > --------------------------------- > > On November 18, 2004 - 10:37 AM PST RWaller wrote: > > --------------------------------- > > But otherwise, it *IS* a kick-ass shounen show, with lots of action and great babes. > > > > Maria-sama ga Miteru is another example > > I really loved that scene in episode 2 where the giant Madonna statue in the courtyard came to to life and started trashing Tokyo, looking for the corpse of her son Jesus. All the girls in the student coucil had to combine their powers to take her down, using those "electric crucifix and sickle on a chain" things. Poor Jesus, I couldn't believe the SDF actually nailed him to the Tokyo Tower to lure Madonna out. > --------------------------------- HEY! no fair posting stuff like that without a SPOILER WARNING! Or I'll tell them about what Pixie Misa did to the graduation ceremony!
Phiraxis	post #27  on November 18, 2004 - 2:32 PM PST   Thank you for replying! Since I woke up this afternoon, the anime gods must have spared me. Now to eat Ramen noodles in homage to their greatness! Anyway, I'm guessing RG Utena was shoujo? I had a sneaking suspicion there was something very... wrong... about it while I watched. Like the same feeling you get when bored freshmen paint your nails in technicolor... you guys know what I mean. yeah. Oh, Catallus, don't change your icon because of me! Who said only one person can have a black wizard icon? It's not like Highlander, there can be only than one, or something like that @_@ (off-topic: how's WoW going? I get giddy just thinking about it!)
hamano	post #28  on November 18, 2004 - 2:58 PM PST   > On November 18, 2004 - 2:32 PM PST Phiraxis wrote: > --------------------------------- > Anyway, I'm guessing RG Utena was shoujo? I had a sneaking suspicion there was something very... wrong... about it while I watched. Like the same feeling you get when bored freshmen paint your nails in technicolor... you guys know what I mean. yeah. My personal theory is that RG Utena was created by Kunihiko Ikuhara to target male fans who liked his work on stuff like Sailor Moon S. There IS a shoujo manga based on Utena that was written as the TV show was released, and serialized in a Shoujo manga magazine. I haven't read this but from what I hear it's aimed at a younger female audience and not quite the same as the TV show. There was NO Utena manga that preceded the TV show. Ikuhara put a lot of stuff that would appeal to a guy in his works, and there's quite a bit of stuff with gay appeal as well. So I would say that overtly Utena is shoujo, but underneath it's more like a fanboy's perfect version of what an ideal shoujo show for male fans would be. That feeling you got is more like watching Ru Paul in his/her prime singing and dancing.
Catullus	post #29  on November 18, 2004 - 11:38 PM PST   > On November 18, 2004 - 2:32 PM PST Phiraxis wrote: > --------------------------------- > Oh, Catallus, don't change your icon because of me! Who said only one person can have a black wizard icon? It's not like Highlander, there can be only than one, or something like that @_@ > > (off-topic: how's WoW going? I get giddy just thinking about it!) > --------------------------------- I was thinking about changing it anyhow, ive had this one for a long time, besides yours is cooler than mine. World of Warcraft is cool, the beta had significant lag but it was fun, ive never bought a mmorpg before so I don't have much to compare it to, but I love WC 3 and so im really into the warcraft universe anyway. Im going to be a nightelf druid female on a pvp server as my main character. Ive decided that I hate the horde characters even though the Undead were my fav race to use in WC3, the character design for the horde isn't that good, especially the undead, the only cool undead race is the horde. I think the best races are in order Night Elves Tauren Humans Dwarfs Orcs Trolls Gnomes Undead The beta is over and the game starts next week, im going to be ordering the game tomorrow ^_^
Phiraxis	post #30  on November 19, 2004 - 12:17 AM PST   Hey I'm glad you like the icon but he doesn't seem to be animating for some reason. Maybe he's just shy. I'm more of a NE player though I always play as "random" on battle.net. You can cause untold misery using shadowmeld, blink, and Warden ;) Oh, and I've been poking around in the Anime forums and it seems like Hamano is a living database of all-that-is-anime! Wow, I truly am in awe. GreenCine should pay you. I bet a ray of sunlight follows you around outside, doesn't it? ^_^
Catullus	post #31  on November 19, 2004 - 12:52 AM PST   > On November 18, 2004 - 11:38 PM PST Catullus wrote: > --------------------------------- the character design for the horde isn't that good, especially the undead, the only cool undead race is the horde > --------------------------------- seriously why the hell don't i ever preview or as it seems get enough sleep, i meant the only cool character designs in the horder were taurens. and then only tauren males. man i need to sleep more and work less >_<
hamano	post #32  on November 23, 2004 - 4:57 PM PST   I found this really good summary HERE for shounen VS shoujo. Your guide to: Shounen and Shoujo  Having helped with the shoujo panel at Anime Expo for the past few years, I keep running into people with the exact same problem: They don't know the difference between shoujo and shounen.  So I'm here with a quick guide on how to set you straight on what's what.  Ready?  "Boys have a penis and girls have a vagina."  No, seriously.  Shounen means "boy", and is applied to shows and manga that target a specifically male audience.  Shoujo means "girl", and targets the other half of the population.  It's not that hard, when you get down to it.  Where it does get hard is how to figure out what audience they're targeting.  The two easiest ways are to look at either the source material or the ads.  The ads are something you don't see that often unless you're either watching Japanese TV or reading weekly/monthly manga anthologies, so let's keep this part short.  If you see ads for dolls or various beauty products, then it's probably shoujo.  If you see ads for cars, video games, and similar miscellany, it's probably shounen.  Source material is much more telling.  Does it come from a magazine named, say, Shounen Jump, Shounen Ace or Shounen Magazine?  Then it's shounen, because everything that appears in the pages of a shounen magazine is by definition aimed at a male audience.  Does it come from Ribbon, Nakayoshi or Hana to Yume?  Then it has a female audience.  It's as simple as that.  Special case: The Vision of Escaflowne started out as a shounen manga by Katsu Aki, who also did Psychic Academy and Futari Ecchi.  Then it had a show, and then it had a shoujo version called Tenkuu no Escaflowne: Hitomi.  So it's originally shounen but converted to both.  Strange but True: If you look at the manga, Legend of Galactic Heroes is shoujo.  But since that's not the source material, it's not really shoujo.  It has a shoujo manga based on the series of novels, though.  Then again, it has a shounen manga too, so it's another of those weird cases.  Series based on games are often a very sticky point, since many of them are released without a particular audience in mind\though the male audience is assumed due to the demographics of the video gaming public, it's not always true.  After all, Angelique is based on a dating game meant for girls, since you play as the girl and try to win the hearts of various prettyboys.  However, Angelique is an exception, not a rule.  Sakura Wars, despite some uninformed opinions to the contrary, is aimed at a primarily male audience.  How can you tell?  Well, it's a dating game.  Same goes for Tokimeki Memorial, Sentimental Journey and a whole lot of other things our departed officer Ben Lo likes.   Case in point: People think To Heart is shoujo because it "has romance in it".  Ahem.  To Heart was originally a porn game on the PC.  So here's a hint for you: if it had to be censored in its original version, then it has a 99.9999% chance of being aimed at the male segment of the populace.  This also applies to such "shoujo" as Kanon, which also have porn aplenty.  Check the next note.  Related rule of thumb: Listen to Alex Lau, who's been beating the difference between shounen and shoujo into fanboy heads at AX since '97.  "Lots of girls, one guy = shounen".  There are a few exceptions, of course, but they're few and far between (which is why they're exceptions).  This applies to people who think Love Hina is shoujo because it's romance (good lord, people, it ran in Shounen Magazinec) and others.  One thing people never seem to remember is that while the content of a show does matter, it's not the most important consideration.  X has action, sure.  But it's shoujo.  Magical Nyan Nyan Taruto is a magical girl show, but it ran in Ultra Jump, which is pretty darn shounen, let me assure you.  Romance does not always equal shoujo, action does not automatically equal shounen, and you would do well to remember that, especially if you're people who try to tell me that Chobits is shoujo.  In summation, I have one last thing to say to all of you: if you don't know, don't try and make claims.  Look it up somewhere, or if worse comes to worst, e-mail me at fudomyou@yahoo.co.jp with your question and I'll tell you if it's shoujo, shounen or indeterminate.  And as a final note, here's the rundown on what's what in this semester's showing list: Narue no Sekai: Runs in Shounen Ace.  So very shounen. My Neighbor Totoro: Does not apply to shounen/shoujo, since it was originally a wide release movie. Lupin the 3rd: Lupin the 3rd is a very old, very established shounen manga.  Its audience may have grown over the years, but it's still shounen. Aka-chan to Boku: Ran in Hana to Yume.  Shoujo. R.O.D. the TV [sic]: Ran in Ultra Jump, along with Bastard!! and Tenjo Tenge.  What do you think? Arcadia of my Youth: While it's an anime original, there is no denying that the series is made for a primarily male audience. Ultra Maniac: From the same mangaka as Marmalade Boy.  It's from Ribbon, the manga has a pink spine, and so all signs point to shoujo. Junkers Come Here: The manga ran in Asuka DX, making it shoujo. Texhnolyze: Anime original, so the usual rules don't apply. Millennium Actress: See Totoro. Boys Be: This used to be a staple of Shounen Magazine, just like Chobits and Love Hina were.  Shounen. Whispers of the Heart: Ran in Ribbon.  Draw your own conclusions. Giant Robo: Anime original, though like Harlock, it definitely has a male audience.
RWaller	post #33  on November 23, 2004 - 6:04 PM PST   I'm still not entirely sure what the purpose of this thread is ... if it's for guys who are terrified of getting cooties from watching girls' shows, why don't they just turn on their GC "Don't Show Chick Flicks" option? Oh well .. back to Rozen Maiden and the adventures of Mini-Miya-sama, er I mean Shinku ... (hmm, maybe I should take a break).
hamano	post #34  on November 23, 2004 - 8:42 PM PST   As a Jap, personally I'm enjoying seeing the breakdown of shounen/shoujo boundaries right before my eyes. Sometime soon I think a weekly or monthly magazine might emerge that ISN'T a shounen comic OR a shoujo comic. Just a comic serializing (hopefully) good stories told by male artists AND female artists for exactly the kind of crossover audience I represent. I WANT to read both School Rumble and Fruits Basket together in one magazine... There IS a precedence for this... Shougakukan publishes a monthly manga magazine for each year of school.... Their titles are Yochien (Kindergarten), Ichinensei (First Grader), Ninensei (Second Grader) etc etc... I used to get them every month at the public school I went to when I was in first grade. It was pretty thick, had manga serials, non-fiction articles, educational articles and activities, arts and crafts kits, and stories in it. The manga in there was aimed at kids, both boys and girls... People my age grew up on that stuff...
jross3	post #35  on November 23, 2004 - 10:24 PM PST   I, for one, am not enjoying it! It complicates things! Say, I can recomend a title for someone, and they'll say, "Isn't that shoujo?" or "That sounds pretty girly". After today, from what I've read about myself lately, I can say with confidence, "yeah, probably, but watch/read it anyway, darn you!" But before, I would try to say, "Yeah, but not really, you should read it; even if it looks, feels and even smells like shoujo, you're gonna like it, I promise!" It's complicated, like I said. If someone asks me if Tsubasa is shounen or shoujo, I don't know! From Clamp, I'd probably guess shoujo, but since they had so much success with Chobits I'm not so sure, and there's enough elements of shounen in it to at least make me think twice; and the book doesn't help me follow the above guidelines, since it says only that it was originally "published in serialization and then in book form by Kodansha". So I'm gonna call it "Shoujo Action!"! That'll confuse them, I hope, and leave me off the hook. (I am at least justified in that there's a small group of men with only one woman; that's no shounen formula, certainly.)
hamano	post #36  on November 23, 2004 - 10:52 PM PST   Hey, man, this cool music is called rock and roll! Oh, but sir, isn't that colored music? We don't listen to colored music, that's for colored people... But it ROCKS! But we're not "colored"... THAT's the age you're still living in, jross3 my friend! Shounen, shoujo, it's not gonna matter! It's just gonna be manga that ROCKS and manga that SUCKS.
jross3	post #37  on November 23, 2004 - 11:20 PM PST   :-P 'course, if you lived here, you might be surprised at how close you are to the truth. 'course, none of the people to whom that applies are into manga, so the sort of situation I described hasn't actually happened... But, theoretically, it could! and then where would I be? What am I supposed to do with all these potential debate topics? Put them in a tub and wash myself with them? Because that's what soap is for. In reality, I, too, am glad (in principle) to see a general dissolution of borders in arts - and especially in cooking. Shounen and shoujo; cartoons and anime; pepper and slightly spicier varieties of pepper; salt and kosher salt; it's all good, I feel like my nose has reached enlightenment. Even liver and onions smell good. I eat raw celery! What was I talking about again?
RWaller	post #38  on November 24, 2004 - 8:07 AM PST   > On November 23, 2004 - 8:42 PM PST hamano wrote: > --------------------------------- > As a Jap, personally I'm enjoying seeing the breakdown of shounen/shoujo boundaries right before my eyes. Sometime soon I think a weekly or monthly magazine might emerge that ISN'T a shounen comic OR a shoujo comic. Just a comic serializing (hopefully) good stories told by male artists AND female artists for exactly the kind of crossover audience I represent. I WANT to read both School Rumble and Fruits Basket together in one magazine... > I can only imagine what this means to you. Our sinister plan for school integration is working! HO HO HO HO! Makes me want to go back and watch Hairspray again. ROCK AND ROLL! > There IS a precedence for this... Shougakukan publishes a monthly manga magazine for each year of school.... Their titles are Yochien (Kindergarten), Ichinensei (First Grader), Ninensei (Second Grader) etc etc... I used to get them every month at the public school I went to when I was in first grade. It was pretty thick, had manga serials, non-fiction articles, educational articles and activities, arts and crafts kits, and stories in it. The manga in there was aimed at kids, both boys and girls... People my age grew up on that stuff... > --------------------------------- My Weekly Reader here in Amerika never had such stuff. And as for manga, well, NO comics allowed anywhere near the American educational system, since comics is the Declared Enemy of Literacy. There was Boy's Life for boy scouts, which had a color comics section, but I don't know if there was a monthly pub for girl scouts, and no general interest kid's mag, unless you count Highlights for Children. A local girl had her drawing published in Highlights for Children ... "Submitted by (her name), Age 10" ... the kid was 12 by the time it got into print! .. and I thought 4-6 weeks to get my Sgt. Preston of the Yukon Survival Kit from the cereal box was FOREVER! WOW!
hamano	post #39  on November 24, 2004 - 10:28 AM PST   If you're curious about the pop culture pedagogy practiced by Shogakukan, take a look at these links. Even if you can't read the Japanese, if you click on the magazine issue covers to enlarge them you'll get a pretty good idea of the contents. You can also see that there's an evolution from the covers on the younger audience magazines (mostly cute comics characters and Hello Kitty and such) to Sixth Grade which has pop singers on some covers, and a feature article about "Howl's Moving Castle" on another (most recent) cover. Youchien (Kindergarten) Ichinensei (Gr. 1) Ninensei (Gr. 2) Sannensei (Gr. 3) Yonensei (Gr. 4) Gonensei (Gr. 5) Rokunensei (Gr. 6) Each issue has educational articles and activities, and arts and crafts projects, as well as mini-drills and tests to take at home. There's also a Parents' Section in each issue that discusses the best ways to use the materials for education, Q&A with teachers and guidance professionals, etc. Popular regulars like Pokemon and Doraemon are represented prominently at each grade level in versions "dumbed down" to each lower grade of school. Often the furoku extras tie in to the characters and shows... a Pokemon times table, a Doraemon science experiment (grow grass from seeds indoors!) etc.
Eoliano	post #40  on November 24, 2004 - 2:07 PM PST   Oh, sorry, I thought this thread was about SHOCHU...

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